First Impressions

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Molmoch
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First Impressions

Post by Molmoch » Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:58 pm

I have now played Underkill for an hour or so. These are my first impressions.

I love the necro, so after a pretty intro screen, I made my char "Overkill". I was pleased to see the new skill icons, and spent some time examining the new tabs. Lots of choices, and lots of fun!

Off I went into the Blood Moor. Things died easily to my wand and my first skeleton friend, Bruce. The two of us mow through things until I get level 2. Bruce, meet Tim. Tim, Bruce. Three in two, we really pick up speed. Nothing slows us. Level 3. Tim and Bruce, meet Steve.

It doesn't take long to mop up the outside. By this point I have four skeletons, a point in amp, and one in the first poison skill.

To the Den!

We make short work of things, and in the middle, I hit level 6. Teeth, here I come. In no time, we've cleared things out, and I'm heading for the Cold Plains.

But I notice that things are going slower now, and my skeletons are not as cool as they used to be. A quick check reveals a real potential issue:

No increased damage. Oh, they are getting +14%, but its +14% of 1-2. Still 1-2. So they end up being meat shields while I head out with my mace. I wonder why my poison skill isnt working. Oh. Its like dagger. I thought it was a passive.

I get a chipped amethyst, and am surprised to see +5str and +5 dex on it. Wow! Into some boots with you!

So overall, here is what I'm thinking. Skeletons will quickly become useless, making the necro into a close up fighter. Take away the clay golem until level 18, and I'm concerned. Perhaps you can change the damage to something like 1-2 +1 min per slvl, with +5, 10, 15% instead of 7, 14, 21? Skeleton mastery is what made skeletons work. Unless that skill can spawn on things, it will be a slow go.

Gems seem a little powerful for early game work.

Can you lower the damage on the poison skill and make it a passive? With such a large mana cost (3 per attack) there is no way I am going to use it. At least not at early levels.

I'm going to try a sorceress for now, and see how my early impressions change with her.

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Re: First Impressions

Post by Seaular » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:40 pm

This is exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. :)

The gems! In the course of the early development of this mod I've swayed back and forth about what I wanted to do with gems. I tried to make them a little more powerful and a lot more rare at first (so gems would be exciting again) but I soon thereafter decided to add sockets to boots/belts/gloves PLUS the addition of the socket runes, so now gems can be highly effective in mass numbers. What I hadn't done unfortunately, is reduce the stats on the gems appropriately. There were so many things I tried to accomplish before the beta that it just slipped my mind.

I'd love some feedback on what you all think would be some good stat values on the gems. Right now, I'd like to keep the same modifiers, but they need to be lowered to a point that they're still effective enough to be used.

Summons! This is an area that really needs work at the moment, especially Skellies and Wolves. I want them to not only be low level meat shields but to actually survive hell as well (and actually be able to kill things in a pack) if enough points have been pumped into them. I definitely need to adjust Skeleton stats (I hadn't even looked at it before :( ). The summons from the Magic Talents also need some work to make them unique from each other. Right now, they're all very similar to each other, in order to start with a level playing field. Eventually they'll be adjusted depending on how the each character stands in terms of melee/ranged/magic combat. They'll also have their own skills, strengths, and weaknesses.

I guess I'll have to rethink the Pestilence skill. To be honest, I had never used Poison Dagger before, and just assumed it was like Venom. When I changed it to Pestilence and removed the dagger requirement I was kind of disappointed but I thought it might work out, but it doesn't sound like it's that cool.

Do you think Pestilence would be better if it worked like Venom or Enchant? Cast it and you'd get passive poison damage for a duration? Of course, the damage would have to go down and the mana would go up per cast.

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming! :)
Last edited by Seaular on Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Molmoch
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Re: First Impressions

Post by Molmoch » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:42 pm

[quote=Seaular";p="200362"]

I'd love some feedback on what you all think would be some good stat values on the gems. Right now, I'd like to keep the same modifiers, but they need to be lowered to a point that they're still effective enough to be used. [/quote]

+5 at the beginning is clearly a lot. Now, perhaps the drops are rare enough that it doesn't matter. But with all those sockets, I'd rather have more drops with less modifiers on them, like +2.

[quote=Seaular";p="200362"]
Summons! This is an area that really needs work at the moment, especially Skellies and Wolves. I want them to not only be low level meat shields but to actually survive hell as well (and actually be able to kill things in a pack) if enough points have been pumped into them. I definitely need to adjust Skeleton stats (I hadn't even looked at it before :( ).

[/quote]

Without mastery, skeletons are considerably poor. If you work some of the mastery bonuses into the raise skeleton skill, it might balance out a bit. BUT..... This was always a fairly powerful skill at level 1. I like the fact that I have to melee a bit with my minions. Its a different feel. And it will make those combat skills important. So a minor tweak here, with maybe half the bonuses from mastery? Don't know.

[quote=Seaular";p="200362"]
Do you think Pestilence would be better if it worked like Venom or Enchant? Cast it and you'd get passive poison damage for a duration? Of course, the damage would have to go down and the mana would go up per cast.[/quote]

Yes. I think this would be more what I envision. Poison in D2 has some issues in how it stacks. If it was a Venom like skill I would be more likely to use it. I don't know how the damage scales out at higher levels, so I can't speak to that. A different option would be to lower the mana cost at low levels and have it slowly increase, keeping the mechanics like PD. 3 mana at the early levels per attack is significant.

Random other ideas...

Why are undead affected by poison? Its not just this mod, most allow it to happen. Makes no sense to me.

There are a lot of shaman. They seem to be faster to raise their fallen buddies. It makes for a hectic playing style. Not necessarily bad, but more frenzied than normal.

I fought BloodRaven with my necro. No significant issues, once I wiped out the undead. It was clear that my skeletons were useless now. I used them to slow down the hoard, and then amped and meleed. This style could be fun. Life seems fine though.

I started a sorc. I felt like a kid in the candy store. So many options! I was excited to see powerful spells at first level. Spike, Fireball, and more. Lots to chose from. Question: Why does cold have one less skill? Is it solely to make room for the close button? I think someone solved that issue if it is.

I didn't have a lot of time, so I wiped out the Blood Moor. No problems, and I slowly began my ice / fire trees. I found a key, checked it out, and had little problem with the first key thing. Don't want to spoil it. Very cool.

I might play around with her some more and get a better feel. So far: Two thumbs up! :thumb: :thumb:

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Re: First Impressions

Post by Seaular » Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:53 am

I'm glad you're having fun considering there's so much more that needs to be fixed.

All your suggestions are right on the money with my own ideas. I've already adjusted Raise Skeleton to be independent from Skeleton Mastery (with slightly lower bonuses per level). You've also read my mind on the gems, I'm going to give it a shot with +2 on chipped amethysts, and a few lower stats on other gems. (Especially the stats for gems in armor, since you now have 5 different "armors" to socket.)

I plan on changing monster resistances a lot in the future, but at the moment there are too many other things to look at. I don't know how skeletons could possibly be poisoned either, but that's the way Blizzard has it, and I haven't changed it yet.

Yeah, it does seem like there's a lot of shaman running around in the cold plains, but I guess that's what happens when you increase the monster density.

And yes! There are only 17 skills per tree because I didn't want a skill hiding behind the close button. There's a way around this? I would much rather have an even 18.

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Re: First Impressions

Post by Molmoch » Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:31 pm

More first thoughts.

Started up an Amazon, since godsheadlament is blasting with a sorc. Decided to go with spear / jav instead of bow. I figure this is an area that usually needs work with most mods.

I was pleased to see the new skills on the left. Arm of Apollo seems to have an awfully short duration. Maybe its just my playing style. I'd rather click it and forget it. But having to click on a skill every 10 or so seconds is tedious for me. Its the same issue I had with lots of the Barb warcry skills in standard D2.

Playing through the Cold Fields a second time, I am convinced that the density is too much. It took me about an hour to clear it out. Thank heavens for Wake of Poseidon. This is a great skill, and right on the money for mana cost / damage at level 1. I'll let you know how it works at higher slvls since I'll be putting points into it for sure! If it wasnt for this skill, I'd still be out there, chasing down another shaman or 12. Unless you want a higher density, in which case, all the more power!

The other gems look better balanced.

Blood Raven went down easily to a jab or two with a spear. The new forgotten story items are a much needed device. :thumb:

Gold is dropping at a good rate to make it important at the beginning.

No major flaws yet. I'll probably continue with this char for some time, and keep testing out the melee abilities of the amazon.

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Re: First Impressions

Post by Seaular » Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:31 pm

I was pleased to see the new skills on the left. Arm of Apollo seems to have an awfully short duration.
You're absolutely right. This and Fist of Ares need to be raised in duration.

About monster density, I'd really like to keep it increased, as long as it doesn't favor the characters who specialize in mass-effect skills. If the melee characters aren't able to keep up I'll be sure to ramp up their skills.

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Re: First Impressions

Post by Molmoch » Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:28 pm

Now that I'm around level 14, I am not so sure that those durations need too much tweaking. The Fist of Ares feels right if all you use it for is against big bosses. I used it against the Tree guardian, and wow!

I guess it matters how you intended them. Very short with big bonuses, or long time frame skills like Assasin Burst of Speed, Fade, and Venom.

Skeleton Archers seem to hit a lot. I think I remember that being a bug in D2. Of course, using a spear with no shield is a liability as well.

Why no avoid, evade, dodge skills? I think those could be really handy. Perhaps on the combat side of skills? If there is room that is.

One thing to think about. Some of the weapon masteries are level 6. Don't know why anyone ever did this. Why not drop them all to level 1?

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Re: First Impressions

Post by Seaular » Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:43 pm

Molmoch";p="200784" wrote: Skeleton Archers seem to hit a lot. I think I remember that being a bug in D2. Of course, using a spear with no shield is a liability as well.
Is that a bug? If it is, I'll try to fix it (if the fix has been found). That was always something that irked me.
Molmoch";p="200784" wrote: Why no avoid, evade, dodge skills? I think those could be really handy. Perhaps on the combat side of skills? If there is room that is.
I really wanted these in, but there's just no room in the Amazon skills for more passives. If I could I'd put these all in the combat tab, but none of the other characters have the dodge animation. I do really want to get these skills in, maybe I'll see if I can changed dodge to a sequence that all characters can use. As it stands right now, these skills will be in the game, but only appearing on a few special Amazon-only items.
Molmoch";p="200784" wrote: One thing to think about. Some of the weapon masteries are level 6. Don't know why anyone ever did this. Why not drop them all to level 1?
You read my mind. The only reason I kept them how they were because for some reason I thought it made sense that all first row skills were lvl 1, second row lvl 6, etc. Then I went and threw that logic out the window when I made the tab of magic passives. All weapon masteries will now (next patch) be available at lvl 1.

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Re: First Impressions

Post by evilbill1782 » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:50 am

Seaular";p="200787" wrote: I really wanted these in, but there's just no room in the Amazon skills for more passives. If I could I'd put these all in the combat tab, but none of the other characters have the dodge animation. I do really want to get these skills in, maybe I'll see if I can changed dodge to a sequence that all characters can use. As it stands right now, these skills will be in the game, but only appearing on a few special Amazon-only items.
Here's an idea, although it might make zons a bit overpowered - combine the dodge/avoid/evade all into a single skill, that way you only need to find room for one rather than three.

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Re: First Impressions

Post by kingpin » Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:27 am

Molmoch wrote (View Post):

Skeleton Archers seem to hit a lot. I think I remember that being a bug in D2. Of course, using a spear with no shield is a liability as well.

Is that a bug? If it is, I'll try to fix it (if the fix has been found). That was always something that irked me.
Never heard that this should be a bug. Maybe you have just set a high chance for the archer to hit? Also, remember that while you are running your defense bonus are not applied.

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Re: First Impressions

Post by Molmoch » Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:09 pm

I didn't even think about the animation issue. You could combine them into a single passive skill, but with lower rates than normal. There really is little room in the trees as designed right now to put three skills in there.

I would suggest removing the jav skills, but I fear that might ruin the amazon class for some.

Maybe they just don't exist!

----

EDIT: I decided to work on the necro again now that the skeletons are "fixed". A+ on this now! Skeletons are not so overpowered that they kill easily without cursing or magic help. In fact, I think it was the mastery skill that was overpowered. I have 5 skeles, with skill level 9, and we are moving through things slowly. Lvl 16, about to go for the inner cloister next time around.

As usual, I find myself avoiding Life Tap and Iron Maiden. I think Iron Maiden will come in more handy against boss battles, but I am really unsure about Life Tap. Never liked the skill. I liked confuse, attract, and dim vision more. Even terror had some uses. But my hirelings are more easily healed with potions, and minions can always be resummoned.

Looking forward to 18, and hitting bone spear, clay golem, acid rain, and more!

This is the most balanced necro I have yet played. Density works well here, more than with my melee char which felt a bit overwhelmed at times. With density this high (which I am fine with), every class really needs some AOE skill. Not necessarily massive damage, but something to deal with the hordes.
Last edited by Molmoch on Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First Impressions

Post by Seaular » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:18 pm

Molmoch, that's awesome. I'm glad things are working for the better. Be sure to keep me informed as you progress. :)

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Re: First Impressions

Post by Molmoch » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:24 pm

Continuing my stream of consciousness as I play...

Just whoped Andariel at lvl 19. As soon as I hit 18, I hit the magic reallocation button. That thing will kill your low level skill use faster than uber skills. Why use teeth when I can use spear? I know its part of PlugY, but is there a way to eliminate that reallocation thingy? I think it really imbalances things.

So I reallocate, and throw points into spear, decripify, golem, and the pre-reqs, sinking the rest into raise skele. With two +3 items, wand and head, I still have a slvl 9 (or 12, I forget).

Decripify, as usual, is overpowered. I hate to say it since I love the curse, but having slow, weaken, and amp damage built in has always been too much. Higher mana cost, sure. Not a problem if you give me a warmth skill as a passive...

Bone spear ramps up very quickly as well, especially with a point into magic mastery. I don't know if I'm more powerful than a lvl 19 normal necro or not, but I waltz into Andarial's house and leave a few minutes later. One down, four to go.

Other random thoughts...

Why do wands, staves, orbs, scepters, etc. only spawn with one + skills line? I liked having really expensive but really nice wands. More skills might mean more being used?

I have 3/4 of the keys set. The newer drop rate seems about right. I always liked having sets. Almost no other set items dropped in Act 1. I gambled a Hrasu's belt, and Andy dropped Clegaw's tooth.

Why do spears spawn with + to javalin? It might be too much of a headache to fix this, but it does bother me a little.

Two uniques - felloak and the lowest barbarian helm. Is that new? Seems like it to me. Very cool helm!

Don't know how much extra work, but I always thought the gate to the Monastery should have some sort of guard as well.

Maybe you can have the keys drop from specific chests at the bottom of the optional side areas? That would encourage exploration...

--------

EDIT: I am still playing, but with a wife, two kids, and a busy work schedule, things have slowed down a bit. My necro is now in Act 3, and is around level 26. The new skeleton formula is working great, as its back to slightly overpowered like normal D2LOD. The skeltons mostly hold back the rush until my archer and golem can kill things. A few spirits here and there and things go down pretty easily. Duriel went down to Iron Maiden and a bunch of clay golems.

I can not stress enough how overpowered that first set is with those huge bonuses. With so many things giving + based on level, and a +2 to all skills, its a bit much. I see no reason to change any gear anytime soon. In addition, I think you will find that the reallocation button in PlugY makes any argument over skills sort of pointless. Make them cool, different, and with tactical changes instead of spending lots of time trying to balance them.

I wonder if there is too many poision skills in the necro tree. I would love instead to see the poison and bone attack spells combined, and the summons have their own line. Skeletons, Clay Golem, Magi, Blood Golem, and Revive (at 30). Make the familiar / class summon a small demon that gives aura bonuses to summons. Just a random idea - what about a bone golem?

Cool mod so far, and I hope you keep tweaking to make it more fun.
Last edited by Molmoch on Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First Impressions

Post by Seaular » Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:57 pm

I lowered that first set's bonuses a while ago (for the next patch) and normally it won't be too easy to find, I made the first set of keys real easy just to make sure everyone could test out the whole Portal Key idea. Starting with the next patch they will be more rare, but there will be more keys total (20 different keys!).

The Raise Skeleton change was just a temporary fix, they were just too worthless in the previous version, they will be better ironed-out in the future. I also think there might be too many poison skills for the Necro, but I had to try it out, no one ever made use of any poison skills before.

I tinker with things every day, I spent the past week working on new Portal Keys and their areas, so that's done and ready for a patch. I just wanted a few more content updates before I drastically alter the skill situation, to make sure everything melds.

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