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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:52 pm 
 Post subject: [IDEAS]Eastern Sun Rises
 
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This gonna be a longer post, so bear with me. I wanna introduce where I wanna take the mod next, what I have planned and where I need feedback or help. I wrote about some of those in different posts before and wanna now bring them all into one big thread to be discussed. Until now I mostly focused on fixing or changing little things. Nothing out of the way. For once cause that's what most players seemed to want and second to get myself back into modding. Now that I feel more confident and with the support of guys like Ogodei, Mnw1995 or Spike I wanna take the mod to the next level. This also means going further away from Eastern Suns orgin, hence the name Eastern Sun Rises.

Edit: Lots of things have happend since I post this. Aught aka Maks, Sky and Thaison aka Vietnam joined the team. With currently Maks focusing on skills, Thaison on Code edits and Sky working on items related stuff, which allows me to focus on graphics in the meantime.

[Base Items]

I am currently working on a new base item system where every base item will have its own itemtype. This will give us three big opportunities, first the usage of a D2Mod Plugin called NoSock.dll, which allows to control what can be socked into what itemtype. Second we will get a better control over cuberecipes and can go deeper into details here and third a bigger variety of base graphics. Those are mostly taken from Two Worlds, Titan Quest and Grim World. Mixing those might be not for everyone, but that's what I wanna do in my mod.

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Different to LoD I splitted armor items in four groups plus two for shields so far. We have leather, chain, halfplate and plate armor sets. They all are taken from Two Worlds. I splitted shields into wood and metal. I took them from Titan Quest, but not really happy with their look. So I made end up changing those. Belts are currently taken from Grim World, but will require some more work too.

In the end we will have a similar amout of types for armor/shields and belts as in LoD and a higher variety for helms/gloves and boots. Those items will serve as the backbone. On top of that I wanna add more itemtypes for hell only. Seriously we all spend most time there after all. No need for thousands of low tier items. Those basitems will be more specifc. Featuring automagics, special sock requirements (see above), requirements etc. Right now I am not playing to have as many char specific itemtypes as in LoD, but maybe one for every type (helm,armor,boot,etc.).

Similar measures will be taken for baseitem weapons. However, I havent put much time into those yet. On a related note. I wanna limit certain skills to certain weapontypes. Which can result in more useable items in endgame. For rings and amulets I will use the same system as we have now, but might redo/rework certain graphics as I wanna take some for unique items.

Finished items for the new special slot. We'll have shoulders for melee chars, armbands for range chars, spellbooks for caster and heads for summoner. You can also see some new belts and shields. I have finished all the basic armor itemtypes and working on weapons now. Weapons will see a drastically reduction in itemtypes. To give you an example, LoD has 13 itemtypes for spears, polearms and scythes. I reduced this to 6. As such we will have less "unused" basetypes.

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[Uniques and Sets]

I really like the idea of every unique item having its own distinctive graphic. Those will come from all kind of sources, like Path of Exile, Diablo 3, Gondal, etc. or altered / selfmade like those from Barby.

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They will also feature special itemstats which in some cases can only be found on them, more about them later. The following example was made by Ogodei for showing exactly this. Beside we can see that this item has a different colored name. I wanna use this for super rare uniques (everyone who played MedianXL should be familiar with what I mean). I really like the idea in Path of Exile where uniques often feature such special itemstats, but lack important stats like life or resistances. I wanna recreate the same here to ideally prevent players only using uniques. See Kaom's Heart for example.

Image

I never was a friend of set items as they are especially hard to balance. All sets will have they own fitting graphics, so that we dont have to resort to palshifts in order to creating fitting items. Both sets as uniques will be loosely based on previous Easten Sun and LoD sets. Be it the whole theme of an item or simply the name.

[Magic, Rare and Craft Items]

They should be the players main source for fundamental itemstats like previous mentioned life and resistances. They can also have their own sets of exclusive Oskills or Triggers to make them more attractive. Also the potential of more sockets will be important here. I also wanna spread affixes here. Again like in Path of Exile to have more groups of affixes giving itemstats like enhanced defense/damage. Instead of locking them all behind one group. Also dual max has to go. There's no way around it. Nobody will pick any weapon over a dual max weapon right now in Eastern Sun.

Secondly I wanna have more magic/rare items drop and limit the drop of white/grey items, especially later on. This will require quite some testing, but should be worth in the end to reduce the itemclusters we often get in with higher magic find / higher player count. On a related note I wanna keep improving the current changes I already made to several misc/junk items.

[Runewords]

Not much to say here yet. Will keep them to not render white/grey items useless.

[Runes and Gems]

As said before, all LoD runes will be removed. Even with just the Eastern Sun runes remaining we still have to many. I wanna remove all itemstats from runes, so that they will only be used to create runewords, still with the option of NoSock.dll we could create a itemtype which can only be socked with runes, cannot drop as a white item and has special itemstats based on how many, or which runes, a player has socked.

Gems will be improved to stand a chance versus jewels when it comes to sockets. While jewels feature a spectrum of itemstats, gems will focus on one, but on a higher value. This is also where the NoSock.dll really comes in handy. As it allows us to make gems, runes and jewels all worth to be used in items. I will pretty sure cut down the grade of gems to three from six. One for each difficulty. Also making the first grade unable to drop in hell.

[Jewels]

Jewels will be seperated into two categories. "True" and "fake" jewels. While first will be jewels as we now them, the second will be a new type which look more like gems and will mostly come in unique form. Those will use graphics from Path of Exile jewels which are currently used as jewel graphics. I wanna resemble the Cornerstone of the World jewels from MedianXL with those. However, there will also be fake jewels which feature a certain group of affixes which cant be found on "true" jewels, or at least not in that combination.

Image Image

[Misc Items]

I wanna try and cut down the numbers here. Collection so many different items as we have now, is more work than fun for most players. Items which can be cut in my mind are Ancient Decipherers, Ancient Scrolls, Ancient Tome, Coupons, Cookbook some Organs etc. Also I wanna reduce the number of secret scrolls to about 25. Those all should focus on endgame gear improvements. Removing those items together with Decals will free lots of itemstats rows, as the txt cant hold more than 512 and we are currently at 503. This brings me to new itemstats.

[Itemstats]

Thanks to our cut on those stockers and misc items we can add a wide range of new itemstats. Lately more and more Mods starting to use those. See Resurgence or Path of Diablo for examples. To give you a few ideas what is possible:

We can add new itemstats which increase sth based on another itemstat.
+X additional Skeletons per X Strength
X% Increased Maximum Life per X Strength
x% Fire Damage to Enchant per X% Fire Resistance

We can add new itemstats based on counters. (similar to first type)
X% Increased Elemental Damage per Rainbow Facet socked
X% Enhanced Defense per Wo Rune socked
X% Elemental Resitance added to Iron Skin per Gems socked

we can add new itemstats which function as passive skills.
%Life Regenerated Per Second
% increased effect of Auras
Reduced Curse Length by X%

and last but not least itemstats which improve certain skills (without any conditions as above)
+X additional Fireballs
+X additional Hydras
Glacial Spike freeze for X additional seconds

[Craft Recipes]

I wanna rework the three main concepts of Eastern Sun and add another major concept. First one is tinkering, which has substantially flaw right now, runewords. If we remove Tinker Points as an automagic (for all itemtypes sockable with runes) we can fix this. Instead we can make it a normal affix. We can also create some highly customizable unique items with a high Tinker Point count.

Second is dstoning. Dstoning adds another variable to balance items, the level requirement. With the possibility to reduce those by Secret Recipe 50 we have another flaw which can lead to OP items. Also either the level requirement or the added level requirement has to be reviewed to reduce the number of possible dstoning. I can also image to add special items which consume either Tinker Points or add to the level requirement as unique Mystic Orbs in MedianXL.

The third one is forging. I will probably remove the possibility to forge + All/Char Skills as in most cases this render all other options useless. Also I wanna limit it to equipable items. Beside no changes are planed here.

The new concept I was speaking of is corrupting an Item. Everybody who played Path of Exile should be familar with this. Basically we roll the dice to either improve our item with a random itemstat, getting no change or wasting our item by turning it into rare. Different from Path of Diablo I wont include sockets as a possible outcome, as this prevents using curroption on all items with sockets and second can lead to some rather OP items. Unlike Path of Diablo the item can be modified in any way after, but the corruption cant bed changed, once its done. I really like this concept as it gives the player use for copies of items he already found, also making it harder to get that perfect item everybody is aiming for.

Secret Recipes for basetype changing as well as those for sets will also be removed. Both limit the number of actual items being used by players and as such rendering lots of items useless.

[UI]

Image

As you can see I recolored the whole UI to fit better with the frame. This is mostly done. Some parts might need be fixed here and there. Beside you can see the charm inventory on the left side (credit to dav92 and ogodei). Charms wont work outside this zone. For once we can better balance around this and second playerrs can keep some inventory space for drops.
Other than that you will notice a 2x2 itemslot next to the helmet. This former ringslot will be our new special itemslot. I thought about creating various items certains characters or builds share. Options could be a spellcaster book for casters obviously or shoulders which give extra defense, useful for melee chars. This also means players will only be able to equip one ring, as such we can give them better itemstats as people cant equipt the same one twice anymore.

[Skills/Skilltree]

The skilltree will be rearranged and several skills will be changed/replaced. I already have a general plan written down, but havent started working on it yet. I wanna reduce the overall numbers of skills (at least for the first versions) and introduce a new kind of charskills. Pretty much like Wearbear right now. I count as a Druid skill, but isnt on the skilltree. Those skills can be found on items which enable new builds an will also have synergies like other skills, so you wont end up spending it all on passives. For other skills players usually seek after, I will add slighty worse versions as oskills.

I wanna reduce the overall number of passives and also make them all mainly work via hardpoints. I hope to achieve +skills beeing less mandatory on your equipment. Also I thought of anyother system on giving player two possible builds with one skills. Lets take fireball as an example:

From 1-20 Fireball will be as we all know it. However, if we put any hardpoints beyond that point it will change in its function. We will get an extra fireball every X hardpoints after that, but also the damage will drop, to prevent it from being OP. Now our 20 hardpoints fireball can serve as a single target skill (if needed), while our firenball with more than 20 hardpoints can hit multiple targets at once. In the end the 20+ hardpoint fireball will be overall stronger, but our 20 hardpoints fireball will be a legitimate seconde choice for immunes or bosses.

[Drops]

As said before, I wanna reduce the overall itemcluster we get with a higher player count / mob density. Beside I wanna bound certain items to certain areas (rather than mobs), so player are encouraged to farm elsewhere, beside the main spots.

This will be all for today, will talk about monsters and maps another time. I havent given much thought to it yet. I hope to get into a discussion with you guys and look forward to your ideas and feedback. I will continue to expand each topic as I make progress modding.

[Code Edits]

Thaison was able to remove the Spirt Overflow bug which might lead to some fancier skills. Also once you die you respawn in town with your stuff on. We also added another D2Mod Plugin which allowed us to increase the stack size and replenish and repair rate of items. No more trips to town to refill your throwing weapons.
Cheers
AlphA


Last edited by AlphA - The Real One on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:18 am, edited 8 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:26 am 
 Post subject: Re: [IDEAS]Eastern Sun Rises
 
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Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:14 am
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Hi AlphA,

thanks for this epic post, let me share my thoughts on your approch to ES.

- Uber Uniques: I love the idea. Initially it was Chaos Empire Mod that implemented Ubers and use a Carry 1 check on it. Great mod by the way.
- Sets: Sets are a part of D2 and incredibly fun. They are basically what makes you wanna hoard.
- Magic/rare/craft: I absolutely LOVE your approach here. What made ES so interesting for me was the option to craft extremely viable gear. What killed Diablo 3 for me is that only legendaries are viable and nothing else. That's utter garbage. Crafts and rares should always have the potential to massively outshine all else, aside of a few high end runewords perhaps.
- I don't think removing Rune Properties is a good idea. Personally those extra properties add a special flavor and lets you customize your gear if you're short on dough/gems etc ... I guess this is one of the reasons why scrabble mod wasn't that popular even though it had great features.
- Jewels & Misc: Good idea. You could keep some really interesting LOD uniques (like WIndforce etc...) and keep their itemtype but make them dropable only from certain monsters as the itemtype is only used for treasure drops on this very monster (or monsters). Like the Dropbias in Median.
- Itemstats: This is all very interesting but extremely hard to balance. This part could break your mod and make you lose interest in further developing it. I'd be careful here and not go too much overboard. Especially considering you want to remove DualMax and D-Stoning, you will have to rework the entire lifestats of all hell mobs anyway.
- Secret Recipies: do NOT remove the option to change gear for other slots. This is one of the core features of ES which makes this mod so interesting. THe option to create oSkill builds by changing the itemtype is amazingly fun and get's you the feeling that you achieved something. If you really DO remove it however, please keep in mind that oskills should appear on more gear.


Additional ideas:
- Creation of additional skills: I love Median's concept of item only skills that may be used by anybody. Be it on runewords or rares/uniques/ubers - that's where creativity comes from.
- Tinkering: I was thinking of a recipe to "destroy" certain items (kind of like you do with uniques in median) and get shards out of it that are used to improve other gear. This way your 7th Atlastrust isn't useless after all. You could make this work only with elite items for example.

Keep up the good work bud!

_________________
only 2 things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity ... although i'm not sure yet about the universe (c) Albert Einstein
http://miyoshino.la.coocan.jp/eswiki/?p ... hot051.jpg (WOW)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:28 pm 
 Post subject: Re: [IDEAS]Eastern Sun Rises
 
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Paladin

Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:28 pm
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Well I personally dislike sets, as they are harder to balance and often take up more than half itemslots, but I wont remove them. So no worry. Well, the option to craft extremely gear is also the option that render most gear useless. Which is same for itembasetype converting. As such both will be reworked/removed. I said that I wanna limit on how much you can improve a single item. It will be still much more than in most mods, but not to the extend you can right now. Why would a player equip a rare/unique belt, if any gloves he could convert are more powerful? Beside, items with their own particular graphic cant be converted, as the graphic wont change (unless it is set to be the unique graphic for every unique of this itemtype).
It is not a question if rare/crafts can outshine uniques/sets/runewords, when none of those are even considered worthy in most cases. However, with a limit to how much an item can be improved, their might be a way to balance dualmax. So we will see. About dropbias, rather than kining it to certain monsters, I would link it to certain areas. Will add that to the mainpost. Thanks.
Yeah I will end up reworking the whole mod eventually. Thinking about redoing it from sratch. Havent decided yet. Whatever it will be. In the meantime I will keep the small patches coming to spice things up for everyone playing those. About Oskills, I would recreate weaker versions of charskills and have them serve as oskills, plus the char specific skills bounded to certain items. Will add that too.

Thats a big issue you are talking about right there. I hope to "fix" that with the possibility to corrupt items at least for now. Your way sounds highly abusable. As people could just farm a spot with a high unique droprate and low-no danger. Even on Norm or Nightmare if wanted.

Thanks man.

Cheers
AlphA


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:35 pm 
 Post subject: Re: [IDEAS]Eastern Sun Rises
 
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:12 pm
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Hej, it's Pain, as i promised here is small feedback about starting game from zero firstly.

There are some problems with starting from zero:
1. Mana sustain. Skills itself dont use much mana but there is zero sustain due to very low base regen and not enough leech. I'm level 30 atm and still forced to permause mana pots to spam even low manacost skills.
2. Stamina drain. Dont really know what is a point in permausing stamina pots to run, it's very annoying. Stamina drains too fast imo.
3. Gold problem until act3. Monsters drop too small amounts and items with high sell cost are rare.

Also, skills in ES are based on clod with some changes so they're pretty sad vs crowds. Single target seems good atm but overall skills must be rebalanced and replaced in some cases. F. e. Ama spear skills are very vs mobs crowds bcoz the only option is Lightning Strike dealing pure lightning dmg (that is low even with max lvl gear). Such skills should use WDM imo.

Mercs. Act1 is almost useless even with max archivable gear. Act2 combat looks better but it's like piece of meat anyway. Didnt test act3-5 atm, will test later but if you want i can tell how i made them useful+balanced all on all difficulties in my mod.

Ok, now about plans: :mrgreen:

Quote:
I really like the idea of every unique item having its own distinctive graphic


Really like this too, i implemented this also :cool: keep it on, dude

Quote:
They will also feature special itemstats which in some cases can only be found on them, more about them later. I really like the idea in Path of Exile where uniques often feature such special itemstats, but lack important stats like life or resistances.


I'm a big fan of PoE so for me this idea looks perf. I also did special properties on uniqs and even more special when you corrupt/upgrade them. Uniques must be really unique.

Quote:
I never was a friend of set items as they are especially hard to balance.


Nah, sets are easy enough to balance. I got one trick for this. Imagine that every set piece is Unique item. Then make her properties accordingly this. And in the end put some nice effect into set bonus. Overall i think sets should be 20-30% stronger than uniques when you complete them. And it must be really hard to complete. I also deleted all low lvl sets until ~60 from my mod bcoz no one will hunt sets on low levels, it's wasting of time. Better to level up and farm end gear.

Quote:
Also dual max has to go.

Definitely. And most of charms especially with +skills. Charms must be nerfed a lot. I recall i deleted all charms and left only Unique ones. I made them world drop and smth like ~40 with low properties. But every charm was created for special build and could be equipped in one copy.

Quote:
Gems will be improved to stand a chance versus jewels when it comes to sockets.

Have to do.

New properties and stats are also neat idea, most of players love variability. More variants = more fun. (hello CotWs :twisted: )

Quote:
The third one is forging. I will probably remove the possibility to forge + All/Char Skills

I'm sure things like +skills should be nerfed and replaced by new special stats (like in PoE). In my mod i often replaced them by things buffing skills. It leads to amplification certain builds while doesnt lead to OP crap.

Quote:
The new concept I was speaking of is corrupting an Item

Another nice idea i used also. Tho i used it only for Unique/set items and without chance to lose item.

Quote:
The skilltree will be rearranged and several skills will be changed/replaced. I already have a general plan written down, but havent started working on it yet. I wanna reduce the overall numbers of skills (at least for the first versions) and introduce a new kind of charskills. Pretty much like Wearbear right now.


I'm not big fan of morphs but it should be done for sure. Every clod based mod needs brand of new skills and total rewriting old.

Quote:
Beside I wanna bound certain items to certain areas

From my tests it's much better than bounding to mobs so yes please. I even created special zones for best special drops like gold zone/uniq/set etc. They're much harder than others and counts like uber but rewards are not bad :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:55 pm 
 Post subject: Re: [IDEAS]Eastern Sun Rises
 
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Paladin

Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:28 pm
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Aught wrote:

There are some problems with starting from zero:
1. Mana sustain. Skills itself dont use much mana but there is zero sustain due to very low base regen and not enough leech. I'm level 30 atm and still forced to permause mana pots to spam even low manacost skills.
2. Stamina drain. Dont really know what is a point in permausing stamina pots to run, it's very annoying. Stamina drains too fast imo.
3. Gold problem until act3. Monsters drop too small amounts and items with high sell cost are rare.

Also, skills in ES are based on clod with some changes so they're pretty sad vs crowds. Single target seems good atm but overall skills must be rebalanced and replaced in some cases. F. e. Ama spear skills are very vs mobs crowds bcoz the only option is Lightning Strike dealing pure lightning dmg (that is low even with max lvl gear). Such skills should use WDM imo.

Mercs. Act1 is almost useless even with max archivable gear. Act2 combat looks better but it's like piece of meat anyway. Didnt test act3-5 atm, will test later but if you want i can tell how i made them useful+balanced all on all difficulties in my mod.


That username sounds much more familiar:P. To be honest I didnt really look into balance on (any lvl) yet. So I am always happy for feedback. Can you name any skills which seem especially mana intensive? Did you try putting stats into vita? I mean you can restat later. But yeah. Might think of a more useful approach for Stamina. Buffed single target with the latest patch by adding a splash damage jewel one might know from other mods.

Changing mercs has to wait for now.. So many things on my list already. I tried (with the help of Ogodei) to change their AI to ShadowMaster. But run into some weird bugs and didnt try any further.

Quote:
Nah, sets are easy enough to balance. I got one trick for this. Imagine that every set piece is Unique item. Then make her properties accordingly this. And in the end put some nice effect into set bonus. Overall i think sets should be 20-30% stronger than uniques when you complete them. And it must be really hard to complete. I also deleted all low lvl sets until ~60 from my mod bcoz no one will hunt sets on low levels, it's wasting of time. Better to level up and farm end gear.


Making sets stronger than uniques block so many itemslots. I dont really like that approach. But yeah there is no really need for low lvl sets. You can find them on your first play through and after they usual end up being too OP.

Quote:
Definitely. And most of charms especially with +skills. Charms must be nerfed a lot. I recall i deleted all charms and left only Unique ones. I made them world drop and smth like ~40 with low properties. But every charm was created for special build and could be equipped in one copy.


Sounds much like MedianXL. Having a charmzone later one should make things easier;).

Cheers
AlphA


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:33 pm 
 Post subject: Re: [IDEAS]Eastern Sun Rises
 
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Champion of the Light

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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:12 pm
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Quote:
Can you name any skills which seem especially mana intensive? Did you try putting stats into vita? I mean you can restat later. But yeah. Might think of a more useful approach for Stamina. Buffed single target with the latest patch by adding a splash damage jewel one might know from other mods.


Manacost is ok for all skills i used, the problem is mana leech is low or doesnt work. There is easy solution for this: increase mana regen and create new gem with Mana on striking/Life on striking. It works very well on low lvls (and in endgame ig you stack this {filtered})

Putting stats into vit doesnt help a lot, alack. And on low lvls you cant waste too many stats on vit, must use them for equipping gear.
Btw what do you mean by buffing single target with splash dmg jewel? Cant digest this :mrgreen:

Quote:
Changing mercs has to wait for now.. So many things on my list already. I tried (with the help of Ogodei) to change their AI to ShadowMaster. But run into some weird bugs and didnt try any further.


No need to do this really. Merc AI not bad, just their code is bugged as {filtered}. It's extremely hard to get better results unless you're code guru. You can do them useful without changing AI, just look at Median :P They just need some love and new skills. (I'm a biggest of mercs btw :lol: experimented with them a lot and found they must be supports only to doesnt ruin the game. They actually can do damage but point is they must provide useful support to player while he do his job. In my mod i did 3 diff mercs per act, gave to each his own uniq aura and adjusted other skills accordingly to aura. So in the end they had aura+2 attack skills+curse/buff+uber skill that also could be support. Reason why i gave auras to every merc is simple - aura is one of the best support things in the game. So we can keep mercs balanced until they have good auras and cursed designed for special things/builds)

Quote:
Making sets stronger than uniques block so many itemslots

You anyway block item slots with gear, so no matter what will be there, set, uniq, rare or craft. Actually sets are rares that have additional bonuses when are ready. Usually a problem lays in disbalance in this bonuses.

Quote:
Sounds much like MedianXL.

Well, that's not MXL feature, i made this over 8 years ago and tons of other modders did the same. That's common thing, ppl love uniq charms xD And in Median charms are too OP and must have things, i dislike it personally. IMO unique charms also must contain unique properties for special builds and things, not only +sk/stats/life and res.

Btw i looked in mod files, will you get rid from monster immunities? Since it's the worst clod feature leading all builds be the same. I see you banned "piercing immunity" from plugin.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:47 am 
 Post subject: Re: [IDEAS]Eastern Sun Rises
 
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Quote:
Btw i looked in mod files, will you get rid from monster immunities? Since it's the worst clod feature leading all builds be the same. I see you banned "piercing immunity" from plugin.


Wouldnt say banned. Just had no time to adjust everything accordingly. Right now I mostly add/remove stuff to serve as a basis for a whole renew version.

Quote:
Manacost is ok for all skills i used, the problem is mana leech is low or doesnt work. There is easy solution for this: increase mana regen and create new gem with Mana on striking/Life on striking. It works very well on low lvls (and in endgame ig you stack this {filtered})


Second sounds like the better solution. About stamina. Could probably buff the starting value

Cheers
AlphA


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:31 am 
 Post subject: Re: [IDEAS]Eastern Sun Rises
 
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Champion of the Light

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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:12 pm
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Quote:
Second sounds like the better solution


Not for casters tho :lol:


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