Diablo 2 mods
 


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:58 pm 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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Paladin
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Thanks again for the suggestions! It's good to hear from you.

Doub wrote:
Vanilla has simplified stats that mean little, some useless skills, etc. But hey, these ppl claim its the best.... Fan boyzzz.

You mean like, the only stat that matters is vit? :(

Quote:
Right now item-isation feels too simplified.

Well, that's somewhat true; on some slots it's good, I think, but on others all items feel similar (weapons *cough* *cough*).

Quote:
I dont know why u claim that uniques ruin build options. I mean, its up to you to design uniques, sure u can make them OP which will result uniques replacing rares but thats up to HOW you will design uniques. So i suggest u introduce uniques in the mod and i will give you some examples of uniques. BTW i dont know if you can add uniques if negative effects as well, let me know.

Uniques can have negative stats (is that what you were asking?).

My main problem with uniques is: players look for the strongest items. If those items are uniques, players will only want uniques. If those items are rares, players will only want rares. Similar to how blue items are much weaker than rares.

The second problem is that to make them truly interesting, they need a lot of time. Balancing, figuring out the right effects, etc. We don't have that amount of time right now :(

The third problem - somewhat related to the second - is that the game is so long. This means you might need unique variants of nearly every item (like vanilla has). But that makes it nearly impossible to really have useful, unique effects. Also, the uniques would be useful only in low levels (who gives a crap about the angelic set? Or the unique hatchet?). If the uniques are balanced like that, then the low-level uniques can not be relevant to builds, because they are just too weak. Unless, of course, each unique effect (like +1 oskill X) is copied on multiple uniques, but do you really want "Doub's Tooth" (unique dagger with +20 str), "Doub's bigger Tooth" (nightmare version with +40 str) and "Doub's really big Tooth" (Hell version with +50 str)?

The other option would be to only have high-level uniques. Those would not appear until very late in the game (e.g., until hell difficulty), which is quite close to not having any unique items to begin with!

The fourth problem are that if uniques are too generic, they're just like rares; but if they are too specific, only very few uniques will actually matter to your character. At that point, it will be very hard to get excited for a unique, especially since the item type already gives the unique away (unless I manage to put 5 uniques on each item type - yeahhh.... XP).


I would rather add more different unique abilities to the rare items, for example:
+30 strength, -15 vitality
+100% life regeneration
+100% extra damage, but increases monster defense every time you hit
+30% attack speed, but -30% damage

or gimmicky ones, like
+1000% gold find, -100% experience gain
+running no longer costs stamina

or really special ones, like
+1 maximum raised skeleton
+1 missiles to teeth
+1 missiles to firebolt, -20% fire damage
+50% of berserk damage dealt as magic
+2 seconds duration to firewall


All of these could appear as the third property on rares, making them more exciting without the need for carefully designed uniques. What do you think?

Quote:
Now, a unique based on Broad Sword could appear with:

+200% damage
or
+75% attack speed
or
+40% damage and -35 defense per hit from monster
or
+4 to all skills
or
+15% attack speed, +15% damage, -15 def per hit from monster, +5-10 elemental damage (gives 4 properties but lower amounts compare to a rare)

etc.

Do you consider these examples of uniques for Broad Sword OP compare to the properties with which the rare Broad Swords can appear considering they will appear with standard number of 3 properties?


Quote:
BTW, more properties on weapons are needed indeed.
I want to suggest: + Crushing Blow and + Open Wounds . BUT im not sure whether they should appear as properties on items OR its better to make them passive skills. Because for example, Open Wounds more than about 25% is meaningless, because it lasts a specific amount of seconds and if your weapon is fast, with 25% you can trigger it easily again before the effect ends.
So if you are to make it a passive skill, it would be something like 1% Open Wounds per lvl (20% at lvl 20).
But if u are to make it appear as property on items then i think its better if it appears at higher amounts, like, +7% chance to Open Wounds. 7% as the lowest amount and around 30% as the highest amount, i guess it will depend on the difficulty (norm/nigh/hell) and the weapon type. Because these kind of properties work better with faster weapons. So maybe the slower weapons will have higher % of Open Wounds compare to the faster weapons.

Same goes for Crushing Blow with the exception that MAYBE Crushing Blow could appear as a passive skill as well along with property on weapons because more than 25-30% of Crushing Blow is actually wanted, unlike Open Wounds.
So again, Crushing Blow works better the faster the weapon is but unlike Open Wounds, more than 25-30% for Crushing Blow is still ok. I believe if someone has 50% chance of Crushing Blow, he wont ask for more %.
All these being said i think u know how u can balance those based on the difficulty and the weapon type.


The problem with open wounds is that it can not be really balanced; the damage dealt by it is hard coded and depends on the level. In order to balance it, I would need to adjust the life of all mobs, weapons, skills, etc., to be consistent with the damage dealt by open wounds.

For crushing blow, I have thought about it, but I found it a rather annoying mechanic. Since each hit reduces a fixed percentage of current life, it favors fast weapons with high dex over slow weapons with high damage; in fact, unless a slow weapon can reduce a bosses hitpoints by 1/16, a fast weapon with a sufficient chance of crushing blow would likely be stronger -- which isn't what I really want. I don't want Diablo stabbed to death with a toothpick, I want him slain with a two handed sword, or two axes, or impaled with a spear.

Quote:
Another thing u could do.
Give Open Wounds only to weapons that can cut or pierce, like: swords, daggers, spears, axes, etc. Ofc a dagger can have more chance to Open Wounds compare to a lets say an Axe, but an axe still has a chance to Open Wound, just a lot lower i guess.
So for example a Dagger/spear (weapons that use only their pierce type of attack) can appear lets say with 20-30% chance to Open Wounds, while Axes can appear with 7-12% chance to Open Wounds.
To give you my perspective. For my mod i was thinking to do this based on HOW the weapons animations looked liked in-game and what kind of swing they used for attack, and based on that i wanted to give them their properties (yes, realistic looking).
For example Blunts with no sharp edges at all wouldnt have Open Wounds at all.

That's such a cool idea : )

Quote:
With Barb the chance to Block doesnt appear, is it normal ( didnt notce if i actually BLock or not....).

There is no blocking, except with the assasin's dual wield. Blocking has been replaced by additional protection on shields. The main idea was to stop "dex" from being the "get 75% block chance" stat, and to prevent the crazy "Oh, I leveled up! Now I am less good at blocking things! Yay!"

Quote:
Regarding my feedback on Duriel and general monster defense.
I dont know if i told u but i did most of Act 2 with 75 base DEX and a weapon that gives -21% monster def. So i mean, maybe they dont need that much boost on their def? dunno. Lets see how i do in Act 3.

Also, dont boost Duriels dmg too much, his slow is already PAINFUL :D


Thanks for the feedback! We weren't planning on increasing the things too much; maybe +20% damage (to characters without protection) and +50% def.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:25 am 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:13 pm
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JDS wrote:
Uniques can have negative stats (is that what you were asking?).

Yes.
JDS wrote:
My main problem with uniques is: players look for the strongest items. If those items are uniques, players will only want uniques. If those items are rares, players will only want rares. Similar to how blue items are much weaker than rares.


You can make with the idea that they are equal to rares, so that ppl dont expect them to be better, just different.

JDS wrote:
The third problem - somewhat related to the second - is that the game is so long. This means you might need unique variants of nearly every item (like vanilla has). But that makes it nearly impossible to really have useful, unique effects. Also, the uniques would be useful only in low levels (who gives a crap about the angelic set? Or the unique hatchet?). If the uniques are balanced like that, then the low-level uniques can not be relevant to builds, because they are just too weak. Unless, of course, each unique effect (like +1 oskill X) is copied on multiple uniques, but do you really want "Doub's Tooth" (unique dagger with +20 str), "Doub's bigger Tooth" (nightmare version with +40 str) and "Doub's really big Tooth" (Hell version with +50 str)?

lol at Doub's Tooth examples! haha

I didnt mean to have 3 versions of Broad Sword as uniques, that wouldnt really make it unique.
I gave Broad Sword as example simply because to my understanding, uniques are being made based on an existing weapon type.

JDS wrote:
The other option would be to only have high-level uniques. Those would not appear until very late in the game (e.g., until hell difficulty), which is quite close to not having any unique items to begin with!


Have uniques from normal difficulty, so what if they become useless in night? same things happens with rares anyways.

JDS wrote:
The fourth problem are that if uniques are too generic, they're just like rares; but if they are too specific, only very few uniques will actually matter to your character. At that point, it will be very hard to get excited for a unique, especially since the item type already gives the unique away (unless I manage to put 5 uniques on each item type - yeahhh.... XP).


Yeah my examples werent interesting. And again, i didnt mean to make uniques of each item type. I just didnt explain myself very well :)

JDS wrote:
I would rather add more different unique abilities to the rare items, for example:
+30 strength, -15 vitality
+100% life regeneration
+100% extra damage, but increases monster defense every time you hit
+30% attack speed, but -30% damage

or gimmicky ones, like
+1000% gold find, -100% experience gain
+running no longer costs stamina

or really special ones, like
+1 maximum raised skeleton
+1 missiles to teeth
+1 missiles to firebolt, -20% fire damage
+50% of berserk damage dealt as magic
+2 seconds duration to firewall


All of these could appear as the third property on rares, making them more exciting without the need for carefully designed uniques. What do you think?


I think its a very very interesting idea!! Just one questions, the total amount of properties would still be 3, right?


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:55 am 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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Paladin
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Doub wrote:
I think its a very very interesting idea!! Just one questions, the total amount of properties would still be 3, right?

Each of these counts as one property.
So you could have the following three properties:
+80% damage
+20% attack speed
+30% attack speed, but -30% damage

On the item, it would say:
+50% damage
+50% attack speed

Or you could have
+5-10 fire damage
+12% lightning resist
+30% attack speed, but -30% damage


On the item, it would say:
+5-10 fire damage
+12% lightning resist
+30% attack speed
-30% damage

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:20 pm 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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i see. sound very good ! i look forward for the next release!


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:59 pm 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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BTW. Currently, is it possible for the same property to appear more than once? Like for example, is it possible a rare to appear with Attack speed x3 instead of the 2 other properties? or dmg x3, etc etc?


Last edited by Doub on Wed May 24, 2017 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:41 am 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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no, it is not possible. Do you think it should?

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:49 am 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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I think it will add to the variety with which rares can appear. Btw i edited that last post but i will explain here again what i meant by x2 or x3 on a specific property, so that there is no misunderstanding.

An x3 example would be: If an item was to drop with + Dmg%, + Attack Speed and +Ele dmg. now it will NOT have the +ele dmg and the +Dmg% but instead only attack speed x3. So basically one property on the item.
An x2 example would be: 2 properties instead of 3, and one of the two being x2. If an item was to drop with + Dmg%, + Attack Speed and +Ele dmg. now it will NOT have the +Ele dmg. But will have +Dmg% x2 and +Attack speed (normal x1).


The above being said.
Now that i think of it, wouldnt it also be interesting if there was a chance for a specific property to appear x2 (or x3?) next to the other two properties? Like for example:
+Dmg% (normal x1), +Ele Dmg (normal x1) and +Attack Speed x2 (or x3?).

I honestly dont know if all these changes are even possible, technically. Since earlier we discussed about adding negative effects on rares as well.
OR maybe it will be more interesting if magic items (blues) adopt one of the above characteristics discussed?.

----

How exactly can the current Rare and Magic items appear?

Magic: 2 different properties x1 each?
and
Rare: 3 different properties x1 each?

-----

Hope this whole thing didnt get confusing...


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:16 am 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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Doub wrote:
How exactly can the current Rare and Magic items appear?

Magic: 2 different properties x1 each?
and
Rare: 3 different properties x1 each?


Yes, 2 affixes and 3 affixes. It is not possible to increase the number of affixes on blue items, but it is possible to have 2 affixes that have the same effect, and I also think it is possible to have 1 affix with a bigger effect (prevents the second affix from spawning).

x3 affixes are a bit difficult to implement and would be extremely rare, since they require essentially 3 equal affixes to spawn.
x2 affixes are entirely possible.

I'm against making rare items much stronger than they are right now (by adding what amounts to 5 properties), but Petro and I will discuss "x2" for magic and rares.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 3:51 pm 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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JDS wrote:
x3 affixes are a bit difficult to implement and would be extremely rare, since they require essentially 3 equal affixes to spawn.


Yeah, thats what interesting about x3, that it would be very rare since its harder to roll it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:42 pm 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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Hey JDS, any news ?:)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:28 pm 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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Well, we implemented those changes a few months back, but hadn't had the time to playtest them extensively (I was out of country for a month).
I'll update the download link once we had time to test it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:50 am 
 Post subject: Re: Mod Release: Black Razor
 
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cool.


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