How can we expect to mod Diablo III?

[kingpin]

Id say its more of throwing a bone as you put it. mpqs clearly do not need any txt file in them what so ever as the game reads the bin files. They threw the bone by inserting the base txt files in 1.09 + and kicked it up in 1.10. Then iirc (correct me if I am wrong) Blizz South took control of patching Diablo and changed all the code placing/functions all about.

That's because recompile the code change it, it's normal behavior off the compiler.

[FoxBat]

So yeah, any kind of offline or semi-offline mode has been completely eliminated. Playing anything like "mods" would require first developing private servers as is done in MMOs, and Blizzard will of course frown on this. Not surprisingly they also announced mods are "prohibited."

Given the stance this site has taken towards allying with Blizz against private servers (not arguing that point), I'm not seeing much future for this place. Then again maybe enough players will return to D2, losing interest much faster in D3 given such restrictions.

[D2 MOD player]

I believe what Kingpin is saying is that Blizzard in no way ever officially or even behind the curtain supported Diablo II mods in any way and that the resulting text files are a result of recompiling the game for the update and in themselves are no evidence Blizzard ever wanted their game modded.

So to me I don't see how things change much with Diablo III. True it forces you to play on their server which limits mods to single player (if that's possible which I'm assuming it is with time) but someone might someday officially or unofficially create a LAN version which is not a realm. While Diablo II supported LAN and not requiring online access with Blizzard to play clearly needed a great deal of change to be modded and there were innumerable issues with every change opening up a slew of bugs from the original engine that were craftily covered up in the official version. D2 was tough to mod, D3 will be too. The only thing with D2 that made it appear to be easy was the ability to mod the game with a text editor which I assume won't be possible with D3. D2 even with the text right there allowing changes often had severe limitations to what could be changed and I've often seen mod development stutter because of this. But my guess is D3 with technological advances and 3D being very normal these days will have a much more stable engine once it's secrets are unveiled and will if anything be easier to mod then the inconsistent buggy code of D2. D2 was pushing the envelope technologically speaking, the PC didn't have alot of action based RPG's back then and was considered a rare and difficult thing to do. Not to mention the horribly difficult to mod sprite based animations which D3 will thankfully not have.

Most D2 mods were changing the internal mechanics while leaving most graphics, especially character animations, unchanged. D3 has far greater potential even if they do at first make it next to impossible to change for the average Joe. More technical knowledge to modern techniques for animation and skin modeling would be required but I think the modding community is very clever and they will adapt. I myself have created some really great model skins without 3D model software using basic photo software and it wasn't that tough. It just takes some getting used too. And those were basic MD2 models (ID), would be even easier to do so with the complex geometry I'm sure D3 will have on it's models.

[cla$$ics]

They also are making an auction house where players can buy items for real-world money. This greatly disappoints me to say the least. I can remember a time when Blizzard wasn't so obsessed with money getting in their hands. But that was before WoW, that was a different time then.

[Voragoth9]

It IS confirmed that the offline/single player mode has been removed from Diablo 3... So where does Phrozen Keep stand on this? Will their policy shift or will the only support Diablo 2 modding? Unless everyone turns their focus to Torchlight 2.

It seems the only way Diablo 3 modding is going to happen is via a private server or some unnofficial patch to create a singleplayer, LAN/TCP IP option that by-passes their battle.net system. Good to see Blizzard is trying to run Diablo 3 like WoW with the same restrictions of an MMORPG and giving us all a swift kick in the balls so they can make an extra buck... I will face any legal rammifications I don't care but Blizzard will not impede on my freedoms of how I choose to enjoy the game that I have legally purchased. Blizzard has also now prohibited modding as deemed it a bannable offense.

Official quotes:

"the “no modding” policy is linked to the fears of undermining the Auction House item trade"

“For a variety of gameplay and security reasons, we will not be supporting mods in Diablo III, and they’ll be expressly prohibited by our terms of use for the game.”

BOOM

With these latest revelations Phrozen Keep is going to have to take a long look at it's future and what direction it will take. Stick with D2, break the terms of service when D3 comes out, move to Torchlight 2... Blizzard has essentially stepped on the entire Diablo modding community so they can cash in on their auction house and take extreme measures to prevent piracy.

[Lady Isabelle]

I was just about to post about that: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08 ... Shotgun%29

EDIT: Another post on a different forum

"Another fact that isn't noticed there, but will also be there if i got that right, is that you will have to register a bnet account on their page with your full name and you will have to register your onte-time unique activation key in that account. all those personal informations (ofc not that activation key) will also be visible to everybody in your friends' friendlist. call me paranoid, but i dont feel comfortable to give all that dates to a company and to a number of people that i can't control, just to be able to play a game."

[D2 MOD player]

The main thing with modding is making money off of it. Most companies won't care that much if you mod their game and don't try to sell it without their permission.

The auction house does add something interesting however. Blizzard should know that any game, especially where the original publisher is involved, that officially sells items openly or covertly is ruining the integrity of the game. In the MMO I'm currently playing there's no item trading and no current way to buy items and money only takes you so far. Games like D2 and WOW that have people buying uber items right off the bat is going to destroy the game for sure. If that's the kind of gaming environment they are after I'll just have to play single player only, whether I'm forced to play online or not. Why PVP with someone who bought everything, I'll just kill monsters for my Diablo fix.

As far as giving personal info, it's none of their business. I've paid money for an MMO without needing to give all that out to everybody and is kept private. I also don't like the idea of exposing myself to such a large community with my real name, I talk to alot of people and recently received a real honest to goodness death threat from a 19 year old in the game I do play in. So nicknames are there for a reason. I also find it interesting they'd take that stance since the MMO I currently play in it's expressly forbidden to give out personal information including email addresses.

[gerbilfat]

It IS confirmed that the offline/single player mode has been removed from Diablo 3... So where does Phrozen Keep stand on this? Will their policy shift or will the only support Diablo 2 modding? Unless everyone turns their focus to Torchlight 2.

I am extremely interested in how the Keep is going to handle the hosting/creation/discussion of D3 modding since it's expressly forbidden in the TOS. Provided that this change is permanent and if players have to circumvent the DRM/hack the client/violate the TOS in order to play mods, will the Keep support a Diablo 3 mod community? I understand that this is a difficult decision for the staff to make and a decision that could have legal ramifications for the site.

Who knows - maybe Blizzard will rescind this decision. They have gotten a case of foot-and-mouth before and changed policy due to public opinion.

The online only and no mods thing is the deal-breaker for me. There are so many fantastically crazy/talented people out there who make great mods. Modding and playing cool mods are the fundamental D2 experience for me. I am the person who wore out their left click button. There is something satisfying about playing something that you know someone else made for the love of doing it, not for making a buck or for getting some kind of e-cred.

At this point, I am waiting for the pay to play announcement. Blizzard has tasted from the glided Cup of Monetization +3, and I don't see them being merely satisfied with making a killing at the register when they can take a pound of flesh every month from subscribers. Is Diablo 3 going to end up being an unmoddable MMO?

[Voragoth9]

Even WoW has modded player run servers all over the place... The only time Blizzard has ever pursued legal action against private servers is when individuals were trying to profit; such as selling in game items for real life cash or charging fees... If Phrozen Keep just focusses on the modding and server emulation side I doubt they would have much to worry about from Blizzard.

The keep has long supported Blizzard's policy, this will clearly not be an option if it itends to support modding for Diablo 3.

[Aristabulus]

I'm writing off D3 at this point... I'm not going to suffer Blizzard's crappy rules.

But that brings me to a thornier problem... Will Torchlight 2 be stable enough to mod in meaningful ways?

I was not impressed by the memory leak (hemorrhage) TL1 had, the resultant crashes, nor the savefile overwrite problems. I'm genuinely surprised they dodged the bad press bullet on those points. I'm also disappointed that they started off strong with patching problems, then the Iron Curtain came down after 1.15 got out the door.

[Voragoth9]

Quote from Bashiok earlier today...

In addition to all the other benefits that we believe ultimately come from having everyone online such as an active, centralized community, a popular arena system, accessible character storage, etc. etc. Diablo III is built on a client/server architecture, which means not all the data for the game or mechanics reside on the client (your computer).

This is not too unlike World of Warcraft where the world itself, the art, the sounds, etc. are on your machine, but all of the NPC’s and enemies are controlled by the server. Diablo III doesn’t function in all of the exact same ways, but things like monster randomization, dungeon randomization, item drops, the outcomes of combat, among others, are all handled and verified by the client talking to the server, and vice versa.

We’ve learned a lot from this type of architecture from World of Warcraft, and the added security and oversight it provides. It allows a great deal of control over the game at all times for all players, so if we know there’s an issue or bug we can usually address it right then and there through a live hotfix. Hotfixes can’t be used for everything, we’re still going to have client patches, but we’re definitely looking forward to being able to deliver a consistently high quality experience to all players simultaneously through processes like hotfixes.

In addition there are some pretty intense security concerns. While there’s never a fool proof solution to stopping hack and cheats, we’ve found that a strict client/server architecture is a huge barrier for their development and use.

Ultimately we made the decision to make the game client/server based because of the security and quality it can provide to those playing, and as a bonus it reinforces a lot of our ideals for a thriving online community.

So it looks like Diablo 3 modding will require the use of private servers. I guess Phrozen Keep will have to choose it's future in either Torchlight 2 or turn to the dark side if they choose to pursuing modding for Diablo 3. Any ideas at this point?

[D2 MOD player]

Torchlight was alot of fun and I even heavily modded it's graphics (sorry, never released it, only Onyx has played it that way) but if Torchlight 2 is anything like it people will forget it in a week. Not enough content to keep you going. Even if it is fun. I'll buy it.

I really don't see any game that will replace Diablo 3.

As far as what Voragoth9 just stated, I wonder what the reason for having it in disk format is if it's just like an MMO when it's not one. Why Blizzard gives Starcraft all the special treatment and not Diablo is quite baffling.

So basically we can only mod the graphics and sound and cannot change gameplay in any way. That is very sad and I think I need a moment of silence while I reevaluate my life and figure out something else to do since D3 mods the way D2 is will never happen. Oh I know. As stated before, we'll have to mod another game like Torchlight 2 and hope it has enough customization to allow the creativity D2 did. It's something I mentioned way earlier in this thread or another. Titan Quest is another possibility as it's highly moddable. It's graphics are easily far better then the original Torchlight despite it's age. I don't know of another action RPG I like enough to mod besides those. I guess this conversation is at an end unless you want to change model skins which is more what I do over gameplay but don't see the point in D3 since it already has good graphics (except maybe for some variation). Torchlight had awful graphics and why I modded it, I have no real motivation to mod a game that already looks good unless it's 3-5 years later and I'm really bored with all my other projects done...

[Voragoth9]

Torchlight was done by the original creators of Diablo. It was mostly meant to be a quick novelty game they spent a short period of time developing from the ground up to promote their future MMOARPG... Due to it's popularity they decided to delay the MMO and focus on a sequel with a longer production time, and a lot more resources invested. Essentially Torchlight 2 is to Torchlight 1 what Diablo 2 was compared to Diablo 1. A much bigger, complete, ambitious game. This time with unlimited multiplayer and an evolved version of their world editor that will allow you to mod/create pretty much anything. There won't be any official dedicated server but they have also talked about potentially releasing software to support player run servers.

So yah there is a lot of reason to be excited about Torchlight 2 if you found the first game entertaining even in the slightest. At this point I am more excited about it than Diablo 3. At least the developers actually show that the care about their community and are actively involved on the forums to answer questions and provide feedback on suggestions; as opposed to some ominous corporation that does whatever the hell it wants regardless of it's fanbase wants or thinks.

[D2 MOD player]

Thanks Voragoth9. I knew you could say something that wasn't gloom and doom.

I'll look forward to that game now. Anyway I hear it has whole new character classes so I wonder if they will introduce the old classes later so they can get access to all the cool items. And yes I knew people that helped create Diablo made Torchlight because when I enhanced the graphics as mentioned before, specifically increasing contrast on 3D models it looks like D3, and frighteningly so.

Oh and even more off topic they are fixing up Hellgate London now only called Hellgate I believe as an MMO with far less bugs and better balance. Another game that was originally from creators of Diablo but in this case the new MMO version is a result of the game being ripped out of the original creators so they themselves could reap the benefits but it still has the same roots and will be very similar to the original. That's an MMO so no modding potential there really but it's another option players can go to in the future. I'm not sure if it's fee based or if you buy items (and otherwise free).

[kingpin]

So it looks like Diablo 3 modding will require the use of private servers. I guess Phrozen Keep will have to choose it's future in either Torchlight 2 or turn to the dark side if they choose to pursuing modding for Diablo 3. Any ideas at this point?

Diablo II is still here now and forever.

We can just import the new graphics from D3 into d2 anyway.

Modding with a 3d engine is way harder then do it for a d2 engine.

Also, a serious question. How would you manage to mod D3, if you remove everything that made D2 moddable? no more soft coded texts to use to mod with? you would only get graphics change/ce mods and that would basically cut down on possible mods considerable. No, tools to use at all.

[FoxBat]

How would you manage to mod D3, if you remove everything that made D2 moddable? no more soft coded texts to use to mod with? you would only get graphics change/ce mods and that would basically cut down on possible mods considerable. No, tools to use at all.

There will still be data/database files, whether in excel form or not those are relatively easy to crack assuming no encryption. See our level editor, pallete editor, character editors, etc. Albeit this whole client/server seperation is another layer of mess.

I am looking forward to TL2 but realistically they are a small team working in an extremely short time window. They don't have the 5+ years and large staff/resources blizzard north took polishing Diablo 2 to perfection, they have to release much faster and the long-term game will suffer for it. Worth your gaming dollars but not necessarily deep enough to keep people around long enough to even consider mods. TL has alot of goofy class and item mods but I have yet to see a comprehensive rebalance type of mod that significantly fixes the fundamental BS with the endgame.

[kingpin]

There will still be data/database files, whether in excel form or not those are relatively easy to crack assuming no encryption. See our level editor, pallete editor, character editors, etc. Albeit this whole client/server seperation is another layer of mess.

Yes, but this is done because of a dedicated community.

The point is, even if they did support one form of modding. It wouldn't be ready at start to do any serious form off mods. How many patches did it take before Diablo II modding become larger, besides a few dedicated who started very early? it took quite some time

What he refers to modding is modern era of diablo II modding where everything basically already been discovered (and the patch 1.10) was released. Now add the more advance engine, and this will give other limits to people not used to 3d engines.

[Voragoth9]

Also, a serious question. How would you manage to mod D3, if you remove everything that made D2 moddable? no more soft coded texts to use to mod with? you would only get graphics change/ce mods and that would basically cut down on possible mods considerable. No, tools to use at all.

It would pretty much have to work the same way WoW mods work. Reverse engineering and re-building the server side data. Since most moddable features will be contained serverside you will never have access to Blizzard's official data. The WoW modded servers are fairly good replicas but they aren't exact. As for Diablo 2 modding; I just don't see much of a future in it. Things have really winded down over the last couple years and modding of Diablo 2 seems to have reached it's limitation in terms of what can be done and the amount of interest. It never helped that when Blizzard released a new D2 patch it pretty much renders all previous plugins and mods obsolete for that paticular version.

And yes I am not claiming torchlight 2 will be on par 2 with Diablo 3. Diablo 3 will no doubt be an epic and more amazing game... But from a realistic point of view it isn't going to be moddable, at least not for a very long time. Diablo 2 has pretty much run it's course and modders and players are slowly starting to move on. Torchlight 2 is a good alternative with a good community and talented developers. It has a lot of potential. Other than that there really isn't much on the horizon so there really isn't much choice.

-Stick with a dying game who's moddability has pretty much reached it's limit and modders and players are slowly beginning to move on.
-Go against multiple policies of Blizzard in an attempt to mod Diablo 3.
-Look into the viability of Torchlight 2, which does have a lot more potential than people are giving credit to.

Also Kingpin when you say

Now add the more advance engine

I'm not to familiar with what you're referring to. A more advanced Diablo 2 engine? Can you elaborate?

[kingpin]

It would pretty much have to work the same way WoW mods work. Reverse engineering and re-building the server side data. Since most moddable features will be contained serverside you will never have access to Blizzard's official data. The WoW modded servers are fairly good replicas but they aren't exact. As for Diablo 2 modding; I just don't see much of a future in it. Things have really winded down over the last couple years and modding of Diablo 2 seems to have reached it's limitation in terms of what can be done and the amount of interest. It never helped that when Blizzard released a new D2 patch it pretty much renders all previous plugins and mods obsolete for that paticular version.

You have seriously no clue about this topic.

Most advanced mods are still in development and have basically no limits, the limits is up too the creator of those mods. What you think is limits, is nowhere close to what can be done in any of the reworked d2 engines that is in work behind scene. If any of those mods decided to change the graphic engine to full 3d, they could also do that if they wanted.

If you are depended on plugins, there is no reason move versions. So, stay in 1.10 is what most have done. because most plugins that exist is made for that version.

Also, with SetSamuel's mod launch tool you don't even need to care what version you play.

[Voragoth9]

What you think is limits, is nowhere close to what can be done in any of the reworked d2 engines that is in work behind scene

Can you give me further detail about this or link me to where I can read up on this further? Cause you're right I have absolutely no idea. I would just visit the site and look around the forums from time to time and things seemed to be pretty quiet around here. I wasn't aware of any re-worked or new engine. Can you explain or give me a link where I can do some reading? I've been out of the D2 modding scene for awhile.

[D2 MOD player]

I have thought about the possibilities and talked to Onyx some in the past about how players will someday port D2 gameplay into a heavily modified or whole new engine. This was theory and I wasn't aware of any official developments (and I know Onyx would never do that). It will probably happen eventually as more modders get used to 3D.

It is true that while there are limits to D2 modding the way it stands now with 1.10, even with this current engine you can make it unlimited by altering the executable files to the game like very few mods have. It's just more then what most people are willing to do. A new engine in the long run would be easier but would take extra time initially.

I disagree that a 2D engine is easier. For most mod makers it is easier but for really ambitious TC's like Back to Hellfire I guarantee in 3D you could do in days what took Onyx many months. Thousands of frames of animation vs a few hundred skins tops for a 3D engine, and that's only if it has advanced damage modeling which could be bypassed for simpler mods (just replace all the damage modeling with the same skins to make it easier).

Yes you literally could take D3 graphics and port them into D2 but you'd have to go to a 256 color palette and literally take pictures in 3D software of the 3D model at different angles and port them over. Not exactly an ideal thing to do and it would take a long time. I've seen it done before in a Doom 2 mod, that turned a Doom 2 source port into Quake but I consider it laughable and would never try that myself. But I'm sure someone will do it and would be interested in the results good or bad.

EDIT: Now that I think of it the GZDoom Doom 2 source port might be able to do it because it's extremely moddable and can do a wide variety of games, not just 1st person shooters. Someone recently modified the engine to do a sidescrolling port of Donkey Kong Country. If it can do something that different it could do an action RPG as well...

2nd edit: When I talk about the ease of a 3D engine I admit I'm leaving out the fact that if you decided to make say a whole new monster that didn't fit the model or animations of a monster already in the game that it would be quite the undertaking. You'd have to compute the geometry of the 3D model and create animation files for it, something that's beyond most people. But if you consider the fact that there are so many examples of already created 3D models that you'd rarely need to redo anything to create whole new monsters and existing game models could be used to do most things. Also as people improve their skills they could probably use a current 3D model or animation files as a base and make small changes to them, something much easier and get different results from already existing models.

[kingpin]

Yes you literally could take D3 graphics and port them into D2 but you'd have to go to a 256 color palette and literally take pictures in 3D software of the 3D model at different angles and port them over. Not exactly an ideal thing to do and it would take a long time. I've seen it done before in a Doom 2 mod, that turned a Doom 2 source port into Quake but I consider it laughable and would never try that myself. But I'm sure someone will do it and would be interested in the results good or bad.

change the palette to 16/24/32-bit color isn't hard and have already been made by SVR back in 2004/2005 and possible several others done that aswell after that.

Can you give me further detail about this or link me to where I can read up on this further? Cause you're right I have absolutely no idea. I would just visit the site and look around the forums from time to time and things seemed to be pretty quiet around here. I wasn't aware of any re-worked or new engine. Can you explain or give me a link where I can do some reading? I've been out of the D2 modding scene for awhile.

Blackened (future version)/Day of Death/metalstorm and Dark Alliance have all it's own custom modified engines.

[D2 MOD player]

change the palette to 16/24/32-bit color isn't hard and have already been made by SVR back in 2004/2005 and possible several others done that as well after that.

Blackened (future version)/Day of Death/metalstorm and Dark Alliance have all it's own custom modified engines.

That's really awesome. I've been to the Blackened site in the last year and didn't see anything about it. Thanks for that information. I don't know if I've heard of the other mods before. I'll check into them later.

[Voragoth9]

custom modified engines

I am guessing these custom modified/advanced/reworked engines are not something available to the modding community and are projects that were built from the ground up with specific projects in mind and are intended to be exclusive for those projects in paticular? if that's the case this seems like it would be an advanced level of high end modding that would be largely inaccible to the average modders...

It is indeed very cool to see but if it's a very exclusive and requires a lot of advanced skill to implement then it doesn't seem like it would be something the majority of the modding community would be able to take advantage of. I personally would love to but I can't find much information on this subject on Phrozen Keep.

[FoxBat]

Most advanced mods are still in development dead.

Fixed.

There's alot of untapped potential in 1.10, without even touching all the great code-editing extension systems that have been made. But there aren't a whole lot of modmakers really actively and intensely working on them anymore. It's always a small portion that actually make it to release, so when your modders are small to begin with, completed projects are even smaller.

Not that there seem to be that many people interested in downloading/playing mods either; brother laz still has more activity going on than this entire site.

As far as I know, some people have done extensive code modifications and messed up hordes of function ordinals and injected their own compiled code, but that's still far from a real clone, a genuinely new engine coded from the ground up.