Regarding ToS rule XV

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Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Zaelar » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:40 am

XV) Any and all discussion of closed and/or open Battle.net cheating/hacking is prohibited. This includes discussion of player-activated auxiliary software or software extensions that could be used on Battle.net for cheating or hacking, whether discussed in that context or not. Although mods themselves could be construed as potential Battle.net cheats or hácks, a mod cannot be supported in closed Battle.net and can be played on open Battle.net in dedicated games. But any mod (and discussion of such mod) that implements features (e.g. mapháck equivalents) which are considered Battle.net hácks by Blizzard and/or the Phrozen Keep staff shall also be prohibited. Posts violating this proscription will be deleted and/or locked and the responsible party issued a warning for first-time offenses. Second-time offenders will be permanently and immediately banned from using this bulletin board. You are permitted, however, to discuss editing any code necessary to accomplish the implementation of a feature into your mod including but not being limited to Horadric cube recipes, potion replenish rates, damage dealt by hired mercenaries and damage dealt from in-game boss uniques/superuniques. All topics related to editing code should be referred to as "editing" and not "hacking".
The bolded part is the part I wish to discuss. This basically means anything that has been done on the battle.net realms that is outside of vanilla d2's capabilities isn't allowed here. There are two points that I wish to bring up, one just to play devil's advocate to help support my point, and the other being my point.
1)There are mods/plugins that are supported/hosted on here that break this rule. I feel the only reason that they haven't even been considered to be breaking this rule is because they don't have a map revealing feature.
2)This only limits what we can do, without helping in any way. A mod with a feature that can be done on battle.net realms is no more or less "editing" than one that doesn't have said feature. In a mod, its use is limited to single player/tcpip/open b.net, the same as a mod that doesn't have that feature. I agree that realm "editing" should be banned, but I am not talking about that, i'm talking about modding things for single player that happen to have been done through realm "editing". Ask yourself, if m8p h8k wasn't on realms, would discussion about txt/dll editing(neither of which would work on realm to the best of my knowledge) to have your entire map revealed at the start of a game be prohibited? Answering no but prohibiting anyway merely serves as a link to realm "editing".

Some other things to note:
1)If it doesn't work on realms, then I doubt either the Phrozen Keep staff or Blizzard consider it a realm cheat, in which case this rule wouldn't apply to anyone asking about revealing a map for a mod.
2)If battle.net refers to open battle.net, then every mod would fall into this category so I doubt that is the proper interpretation.
3)What happens to a mod that has a feature of infinite shrine length, and later on its discovered that there is a realm cheat of infinite shrine length?(infinite shrine length is just a random feature, replace it with anything you'd like/wouldn't like to see doable)

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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by onyx » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:46 am

Zaelar";p="238368" wrote: This basically means anything that has been done on the battle.net realms that is outside of vanilla d2's capabilities isn't allowed here.
Exactly. Anything but vanilla D2 shouldn't be used on closed Bnet.
Zaelar";p="238368" wrote: 1)There are mods/plugins that are supported/hosted on here that break this rule. I feel the only reason that they haven't even been considered to be breaking this rule is because they don't have a map revealing feature.
If there are, the only reason for them to be hosted is that we don't know that they are. If you know such a mod or plugin, please, report it to us.
Zaelar";p="238368" wrote: 2)This only limits what we can do, without helping in any way. A mod with a feature that can be done on battle.net realms is no more or less "editing" than one that doesn't have said feature.
Yes, but it's the user's choice. We can't control what the players of a mod use, we simply restrict the discussion here.
Zaelar";p="238368" wrote: Ask yourself, if m8p h8k wasn't on realms, would discussion about txt/dll editing(neither of which would work on realm to the best of my knowledge) to have your entire map revealed at the start of a game be prohibited?
Probably not. But face it, it is on realms, so we stay away from it.
Zaelar";p="238368" wrote: 1)If it doesn't work on realms, then I doubt either the Phrozen Keep staff or Blizzard consider it a realm cheat, in which case this rule wouldn't apply to anyone asking about revealing a map for a mod.
It's more about preventing people from doing an equvalent program. Same thing is with the pathfinding code to prevent bot equivalents.
Zaelar";p="238368" wrote: 2)If battle.net refers to open battle.net, then every mod would fall into this category so I doubt that is the proper interpretation.
It refers to closed. In one of the other parts it's said that mods are allowed on single player, TCP/IP and Open Bnet.
Zaelar";p="238368" wrote: 3)What happens to a mod that has a feature of infinite shrine length, and later on its discovered that there is a realm cheat of infinite shrine length?(infinite shrine length is just a random feature, replace it with anything you'd like/wouldn't like to see doable)
This is not the same case as with m@ph@ck, but it would probably be a matter of discussion in the Staff and we'll decide what to do.

And last, I do understand that you really want this part of the ToS to go away, but I assure you - it won't. You're not the first one to ask about it and you probably won't be the last one, but the rule stays. We have a clear policy and be try to restrict what's illegal.
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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Zaelar » Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:07 am

"Exactly. Anything but vanilla D2 shouldn't be used on closed Bnet."

agreed, but thats not the topic.

"If there are, the only reason for them to be hosted is that we don't know that they are. If you know such a mod or plugin, please, report it to us."

I intend to tomorrow, i'll probably look through changelongs just to see if the changes are in there. Right now I only know of a couple things first hand, but i'm sure there are more.

"Yes, but it's the user's choice. We can't control what the players of a mod use, we simply restrict the discussion here."

I don't mean mod users using the same cheat program that is used on the realm, I mean having what the cheat does a feature of the mod.

"Probably not. But face it, it is on realms, so we stay away from it."

I don't see how it is of any relevance if it is or isn't on realms. If blizzard got rid of all of it and noone could use it on realms, would it matter?

"It's more about preventing people from doing an equvalent program. Same thing is with the pathfinding code to prevent bot equivalents."

The point i'm trying to make is, what is wrong with a bot/m@h@k equivalent in a mod?

"It refers to closed. In one of the other parts it's said that mods are allowed on single player, TCP/IP and Open Bnet."

Was mostly just stating for reminder/emphesis.

"This is not the same case as with m@ph@ck, but it would probably be a matter of discussion in the Staff and we'll decide what to do."

I see this as a problem. Take any feature in any mod right now that is considered acceptable. Make a realm cheat of it and it suddenly isn't? I see this as the same as m@ph@k, with the only difference being m@p came out first.

"And last, I do understand that you really want this part of the ToS to go away, but I assure you - it won't. You're not the first one to ask about it and you probably won't be the last one, but the rule stays. We have a clear policy and be try to restrict what's illegal."

Thanks for not making that your entire post.

Finally, a way to sum up what i'm trying to say is ignore what is happening on realms, it has no relevance to mods which play soley on single player and its own multiplayer modes. Discussion on adding ANY feature to a mod as long as it doesn't work on realms should be allowed.

Finally2, I'm very tired at the moment so please don't hang me if I said something incredibly dumb. And sorry, i'm a noob when it comes to forum code, ie ]quotes[, so I go the old fasioned way.

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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Phrozen Heart » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:58 pm

Zaelar";p="238405" wrote:The point i'm trying to make is, what is wrong with a bot/m@h@k equivalent in a mod?
The same thing that's wrong with the original programs. You can rehash this old subject at length if you wish but the ToS line is correct and is remaining unchanged unless we need to increase the strictness.
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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Nefarius » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:18 pm

Just to put my two cents here,

Anything altering graphic related settings will work everywhere, thats simply the nature of the client/server architecture. In this case every single mod hosted here violates that point.
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Post by Phrozen Heart » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:33 pm

So we have to reword this to make it moron-proof or what?
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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by onyx » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:42 pm

Zaelar,

Here's the point - we're restricting what Blizzard are restricting. We can go on and go on about the h@cks, we can start a discussion about the No-CD cracks too, but that won't change things. Why don't you go ask Blizzard why they consider m@ph@ck illegal? In short - we're trying to stay "clean" in their eyes. Hope that answers your question.

Nefarius,

Graphic changes don't give any player an unfair advantage or a non-game feature ;)
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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by talonrage » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:14 pm

Graphic changes don't give any player an unfair advantage or a non-game feature
Well actually it can. Say you change the graphics immage of Tals Armor to orange. Now when you go and try and trade for one , they all appear orange and that "lil scammer" trying to slip a rattlecage in its place wont work (its still purple) - so its an unfair advantage because he dont KNOW you can see it as something else. :).

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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Volf » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:40 pm

talonrage";p="238454" wrote:
Graphic changes don't give any player an unfair advantage or a non-game feature
Well actually it can. Say you change the graphics immage of Tals Armor to orange. Now when you go and try and trade for one , they all appear orange and that "lil scammer" trying to slip a rattlecage in its place wont work (its still purple) - so its an unfair advantage because he dont KNOW you can see it as something else. :).
Well the armors do have differences such as item type (in cases where the scammer hasn't identified so changing color would only give an unfair advantage if the scammer is illiterate or if the scammer thinks the other person is illiterate ;)

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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by onyx » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:46 pm

talonrage";p="238454" wrote:
Graphic changes don't give any player an unfair advantage or a non-game feature
Well actually it can. Say you change the graphics immage of Tals Armor to orange. Now when you go and try and trade for one , they all appear orange and that "lil scammer" trying to slip a rattlecage in its place wont work (its still purple) - so its an unfair advantage because he dont KNOW you can see it as something else. :).
So you call catching someone who's trying to cheat you "unfair advantage"?
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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Nefarius » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:04 pm

onyx";p="238448" wrote: Nefarius,

Graphic changes don't give any player an unfair advantage or a non-game feature ;)
I can't comment on this here, look at your PMs.
Last edited by Nefarius on Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Zaelar » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:42 pm

From http://www.blizzard.com/support/?id=asi0460p
What is a "h@ck" or "third party" program?
Any program made and distributed by someone other than Blizzard Entertainment, that is used to modify, cheat, or alter Blizzard Entertainment games.

These may include, but are not limited to:

* Programs that reveal the game map and/or player positions (commonly called {filtered})
* Programs that change text color in chat channels
* Programs that modify game items or units
* Programs that cause other players to disconnect from the game servers, or cause server/game crashes
(misquote, @=a)

Every mod on this site is considered a "h@ck" or "third party" program according to this. Unofficially, I feel they wouldn't care about any mod that isn't used on realms. Have you heard of them ever crossing with someone/thing that was for single player/open b.net? Outside of bnetd, which is a different story alltogether, i've never even heard rumors that Blizzard did anything to go against single player cheats.

As was previously stated, any mod that changes how items appear could be used on realms. Anything that changes text color has been done on realms. Displaying an items ilvl has been done on realms. Why are these features allowed in mods but other features aren't?

Anyway, what happens on realms should have nothing to do with what we do. We aren't making things used on realms, we are making single player mods. Realm activities have no place determining our rules. A simple no realm cheat discussion with a few more words to make it look fancy and proper would make a good rule.[/url]

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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by aceman_999 » Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:10 pm

Amen Zaelar! I am completely all about following the laws of the ToS, BUT! If you are able to make a mod that is capable of revealing the map at the beginning, then the coding will be completely different to allow the map to revealed in realm games.

My resolution to this matter is to allow the discussion of single player/tcpip/open bnet mods that have this feature, as long as the creator has a written agreement to not reveal his technique (even though there is a 99% chance that his technique wouldn't help in the creation of a version that could be used in realms) to the rest of us.
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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by kingpin » Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:17 pm

Every mod on this site is considered a "h@ck" or "third party" program according to this. Unofficially, I feel they wouldn't care about any mod that isn't used on realms. Have you heard of them ever crossing with someone/thing that was for single player/open b.net? Outside of bnetd, which is a different story alltogether, i've never even heard rumors that Blizzard did anything to go against single player cheats.
Not really,

Its a very big difference between a cheat and mod. And Blizzard support modding and isn't anything against it. If you readed the patch logfile for 1.10 you would have seen that they special mentioned the improvements of 1.10 for modders.

You doesn't seem to read what they write, or else you don't understand. All mods that are text only mods, are for sure not either a hack or 3rd party program. And 3rd party program aren't either meant to any mods at all, instead those are for programs like "mh".



My resolution to this matter is to allow the discussion of single player/tcpip/open bnet mods that have this feature, as long as the creator has a written agreement to not reveal his technique (even though there is a 99% chance that his technique wouldn't help in the creation of a version that could be used in realms) to the rest of us.
Like already told,

this will never happend here on keep.

Whats the point to make a mod that use cheats? I thought we all made a mod becasue we wanted to change/improved the game, not destroy it with pointless cheats.

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Post by Zaelar » Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:15 am

I know that blizzard supports mods. I've even seen somewhere(I believe an interview) that they look at mods for ideas for future improvements.

I don't mean using a m@p program with a mod, I mean editing the txt files to get the effect that it gives in a mod.

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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Nefarius » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:32 am

That really depends, if someone makes a mod with the sole goal of gaining unfair advantage on bnet (*cough*Teknokyo's Advantage Mod*cough* in 1.06 as the prime example) then it will never be posted on the keep. On the other hand, If for example I'd add a lvlup skill that releases the automap for the current level, like the mapshrine in D1, or make monster resistances show a la D1, this is something different, after all, these features were not intended as a cheat of any sort (and of course, these features wouldn't be working on bnet because I'd add checks in the code to prevent them from doing so).
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Post by RicFaith » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:35 am

well to put it shortly, there is no (NO) way to make mh or an equivalent through the text files. Blizzard did think at least that far before releasing it.

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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Zaelar » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:53 am

Nefarius";p="238530" wrote:That really depends, if someone makes a mod with the sole goal of gaining unfair advantage on bnet (*cough*Teknokyo's Advantage Mod*cough* in 1.06 as the prime example) then it will never be posted on the keep. On the other hand, If for example I'd add a lvlup skill that releases the automap for the current level, like the mapshrine in D1, or make monster resistances show a la D1, this is something different, after all, these features were not intended as a cheat of any sort (and of course, these features wouldn't be working on bnet because I'd add checks in the code to prevent them from doing so).
Thats exactly what i'm talking about. Designing and balancing a mod with a feature (that happens to be a cheat on realms) in mind.

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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Myhrginoc » Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:36 pm

I would think the unanimous "we aren't going to change the rule" from the other staffers might give a clue that you are beating your head against a brick wall. Perhaps you like the patterned effect when you look at a mirror, but I personally would find the experience exhausting.

This is a private club (with very relaxed entry requirements), not a democracy --- and a volunteer effort to boot. You may not like that. You may think we're a bunch of swaggering, overbearing, tin-plated dictators with delusions of godhood. But these are our rules, and "when in Rome, do as the Romans." We aren't the only fish in the sea if you prefer a different approach.
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Re: Regarding ToS rule XV

Post by Phrozen Heart » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:04 pm

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