How many drops are enough?

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<t>Are 9 items enough for one drop?</t>

Sure
2
10%
6 were enough
5
25%
make it 10
3
15%
No way, infinite drops yeah!
1
5%
Less than 6 ought to be enough
9
45%
 
Total votes: 20

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How many drops are enough?

Post by EzechielP » Wed May 17, 2006 10:32 am

As you might know I used one of the fine tutorials of the keep to extend the maximum drops from 6 items / enemy to 9 items / enemy. I used the method of changing the max drops by altering d2game.dll. At the moment only boss creature drops really take advantage of this feature but I was wondering, how many drops would YOU like to see as maximum. Or would you rather have no maximum at all? (Which is possible).

Personally I think 9 instead of 6 items per enemy drop is generous enough but I'd like to hear everyones opinion.
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Post by misharohac » Wed May 17, 2006 10:45 am

Raising the amount of items that can be dropped does not address the real problem. This "real problem" is the boredom and tedium that Item Farming brings to the game.

By raising the number or items dropped, you are not eliminating item farming, you are just potentially decreasing the amount of time that you must spend on it... which actually cheapens the game, in my opinion.

The real solution (and challenge) to this problem is to design an item system that does not require item farming.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by EzechielP » Wed May 17, 2006 10:58 am

Good point. Problem is, most of my fellow d2 players are farmers...
I'd like to think of it as treasure hunting. one of the main reasons why I included such items, that mostly have no use at all except selling or collecting.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Anson » Wed May 17, 2006 11:21 am

I think we have to make a difference between item farming of good (teh uber stuff) items and crap. If there would be a place where you can hang around and farm good items, this would destroy your mod.

On the other hand cheap item spamming would influence the game stability. I know of one case, where you can't leave Andariel's Lair, because the game crashes if there are too many items on the floor. I suppose this happens with Lord Drekas' plugin...

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Wed May 17, 2006 11:41 am

In my own project 1 in every 10000 containers drops 50 gems at once :P, I have stopped worrying about farming long time ago myself, people will farm even if there is nothing to be farmed, irregardless of the item system nowadays.

...

The issue with farming as I described elsewhere is related to several changes that were made since 1.06.

In the way the game worked originally bosses (champions, unique, super uniques, quest monsters, act bosses) where not effected by magic find and did not have a higher chance to drop >magic items. (they only had a 100% chance to drop magic items). The only time this was different was when killing them the first time, here there was a good chance to find set and rare items, and a low(er) chance of getting uniques. In 1.08+ blizzard first grealty boosted the chance to find >magic items, then they made MF effect bosses (and chests as a side note), this by itself wasen't an issue either, the problem was when they made them almost always drop rare, set and unique gear, with or without magic find (this then led to them nerfing magic find, when in fact the drops were the real problem!)*see full chronology below for all the details.

The game pretty much became a farmfest ever since.

...

Item systems: either drop based, rune based or crafting based, other systems tend to become too complex for most casual players who then get mad and leave, and all of these have the farming element, since they all are based on _random_ drops. Random = causes farming.






1. During real classic unique items were inferior to rares, except some used as utility items.

2. To fix this in 1.08 blizzard at random boosted or nerfed the unique items (Maelstorm being an example of an item that got nerfed for no reason whatsoever) - they also added exceptional unique items to LoD.

3. At the same time they altered the modifier setup on magic and rare gear, to make magic items with their new "top magic-only modifiers" worthwhile they made good rares close to impossible to obtain (too many modifiers + very bad ratio = bad items 99% of the time).

4. Now that rares were bad as bad as they could be they boosted their frequency throughout the roof, making the game drop one or more rares per area. (prior to 1.08 this was about 1 to 2 rares per act).

5. There was only one weak spot in their "brilliant" plan, gambling, in the real classic game there was a 3% chance to gamble uniques, 10% chance to gamble sets, 7% chance to gamble rares --- of course, with their new boosted stats set and unique items obtainable so easily would unbalance the game too much, so they disabled gambling for items above rare. They also made the gambling price based on cLvl, rather then being about 35 times the base price of the item (as it was before).

6. In order to supplement the lack of gambling (because of the price and the inability to obtain useful gear that way) they boosted boss drops, forgetting about magic find in the process, many uniques had magic find on them, and pretty much you could obtain about 500-600% with some patience.

7. So their answer: "let's nerf magic find, so that only very rich players who gather {filtered} of expensive MF equipment will be able to find many good items and become even richer! YEAH that's gotta fix the messed up economy, we're simply brilliant."

8. Now, that we solved the MF problem, why not add some silly overpowered elite uniques, since obviously no one is going to waste half a life time to find them!

9. Of course, they forgot the fact that the people willing to do over 1000 runs a day don't care about wasting their life, since they obviously don't have one to waste in the first place (*cough*that or they are using a bot*cough*).

10. Now we had those silly overpowered elite uniques, how do we fix this problem? Yeah, lets add more overpowered elite uniques and nerf the old ones (great!).

11. For unique reasons (possible the high demand), they re enabled gambling for uniques later on, with an abysmal chance that has way too many decimals. Understandable, since the unique items were too good to start with, and you can now gamble for exceptionals [and elite] items too (unlike classic).

12. At this point it all seams to collapse: they nerfed the runable bosses (but people are still running them ad nauseum), they made rares better by adding yet more high level and extremely rare modifiers (rather then disabling some of the low level junk modifiers that are the real problem) and finally added those darn "uber" quests so that people can "farm something else".

Of course I do not claim that the above is 100% accurate or anything, but it shows what happens when one attempts to fix a system that did not require fixing (IMO).





EDIT: To achieve this you must spawn really a lot of items, more then in my screenshot where the whole bloodmoor is full of items.

The events that could cause a crash: all subtiles are occupied, machine runs out of memory, over FFFFFFFF items (the game then runs out of IDs and crashes, but youd run out of memory long before this happens...)
Last edited by Nefarius on Wed May 17, 2006 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by EzechielP » Wed May 17, 2006 11:53 am

It seems that there should be more talk about a better item drop system than about the number of drops... That'd call for a drop mod that brings balance again but who'd really have the patience to do this (or is there already a mod that did this, and I'm looking quite dumb now?)
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by misharohac » Wed May 17, 2006 11:58 am

Nefarius";p="271253" wrote: At this point it all seams to collapse: they made rares better by adding yet more high level and extremely rare modifiers (rather then disabling some of the low level junk modifiers that are the real problem).
Would anyone care for an Eagle Prod?
+150% Enhanced Damage
3% Life Stolen per Hit
+7-10 Fire Damage
+12 to Stamina


What kills me about this all too oft seen scenario is that the game has a built in mechanism for eliminating crappy item mods at higher levels. In the Prefix and Suffix files, there are min level and max level columns which were pretty well blank the last time I checked, which is why you get all those poo mods on ilvl 87 items. If they would just put 75's in the max level column for the first 4 rows of each mod type, people would be farming rares in Hell!

Of course, this wouldn't solve the farming problem...

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Wed May 17, 2006 12:00 pm

There aint any that was publically released, but I intend to release an open source mod (v. 5 of Ultimate Fixer) that basically resets every (changeable) aspect of the game to it's 1.06 standard --- but it'll be a long while before I'll be able to work on this one again due to other (secret) project taking preceedence.



---

What you described misharohac is what my "1.06 style affix" plugin does ;) - while it doesn't really reset the system, it makes full use of those restriction columns ;)

As for this not solving farming, there is no way to solve or prevent farming, what you can do is make people not focus on a single target. Thus by making bosses like they were (only useful for exp purposes), people will start clearing entire areas, like they did prior to 1.08 to find good items. Which leads to more things to worry about then one boss that is always the same, and thus more character diversity etc.

Rares are not preset like uniques, so getting rid of the exceptional and elite uniques* can only improve the game, since people will not be able to plan every single aspect ahead.

*this is not necessary, it's just an example of a very radical and conservative approach, it's easier then balancing exceptional and elite uniques (... :oops:)
Last edited by Nefarius on Wed May 17, 2006 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by EzechielP » Mon May 22, 2006 9:32 am

Seems, that most people don't like high drop numbers... So I thought, maybe we could collect some ideas for a "Less is More"-Mod where numbers would be held lower than in any other mod and even normal D2 (max Skill Level 10 anyone?) ;)
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by misharohac » Mon May 22, 2006 9:51 am

Going a little OffTopic from item drops, I tried a system once where the max skill level was indeed capped at 10. The system however allowed for a lot of +skill mods on items through crafting, so you could quite easily get +10 to all by the end of NM and work your way up to +15-20 to all by the end of the game.

This made for very interesting characters, as the 10-max-base allows one to "Max" a wide variety of skills, say 6 or 7, most which then end up in the 20-25 range with all the +skill items.

The trade-off was that you had to make a choice: when you equipped all the +skill stuff, you sacrificed resists, AC, hp and damage reduction. Conversely, it was impossible to obtain any + skills on good survival gear.

I will eventually start a topic about this in MC+R.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Mon May 22, 2006 9:51 am

EzechielP";p="271835" wrote:Seems, that most people don't like high drop numbers... So I thought, maybe we could collect some ideas for a "Less is More"-Mod where numbers would be held lower than in any other mod and even normal D2 (max Skill Level 10 anyone?) ;)
People might vote "no" for this here, but when they actually play the mod the player in most of us will cry for more, so lower drops = expect users to start {filtered}, higher drops = expect to be looked at weirdly by your fellow modmakers.

As always, do what you like best, it's your mod after all ;)
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by EzechielP » Mon May 22, 2006 10:04 am

Nefarius";p="271838" wrote: As always, do what you like best, it's your mod after all ;)
You're right, thanks :D
The reason I raised the drops in the first place was the thought "it would take a lifetime to find some of the highest items..."
Well, I guess I'll leave it with 9 items. After all, only bosses drop that much.
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Post by Brother Laz » Mon May 22, 2006 11:17 am

One place where lots of drops are important is sparkly chests. You know, those special chests with a yellow glow and blue light radius, which drop a lot of garbage.

I'm not suggesting to make them drop uniques only, but they are so rare, they should perhaps drop more items, to increase the chance there is a useful item among them.

That, and the fun factor of clicking on a sparkly chest and WHAM! a cacophony of drop sounds and the screen fills with items. 'So, who gets to use the gems, who wants the 5 rings and amulets, and anyone need a new bow? There's three of them'. :mrgreen:
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by misharohac » Mon May 22, 2006 12:23 pm

Just wondering, has anyone ever seen a gold chest drop a set or unique in vanilla SP or Bnet?

I have not.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Mon May 22, 2006 12:36 pm

I did, quite often, I play 1.06 ATM making a new Bowazon in precrisis D2, and I found Treads in one of the Tomb Sparky chests :) + other less useful uniques and a bunch of set items.

However, if they drop one set or unique they drop nothing else.


However, I don't remember getting any from those chests in 1.07-1.11x so they probably removed that.
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Post by Malachai29 » Mon May 22, 2006 12:40 pm

I think I have gotten Felloak from the golden sparkly chests in 1.10...I could be wrong, but I do think I did...now was that vanilla or modded, I can not remember.

As far as drops from monsters, 9 from bosses would be nice, seems a little much in comparison to what I am used to getting, but it would be nice.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Hygiliak » Mon May 22, 2006 1:12 pm

I remember a fancy chest in lower kurast that always dropped tons of stuff. On hell difficulty with players 8 it almost alway dropped rares and/or magical elite items.

ANyways, 6 drops I think are enough, no need to drown in items...
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Mon May 22, 2006 1:53 pm

Yep, lower kurast in 1.00-1.06 pretty much was the easiest way to get rares, on any difficulty. Mainly because there are so many containers there.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by misharohac » Mon May 22, 2006 2:36 pm

Nefarius";p="271848" wrote:However, if they drop one set or unique they drop nothing else.
I notice this in 1.09 and onwards... I have not seen any set or unique items, but on occasion, a golden chest drops a lone rare... and I always figure, aha, the game was trying to drop a unique...
Hygiliak";p="271851" wrote: I remember a fancy chest in lower kurast that always dropped tons of stuff.
Those chests are always in the few houses that are angled "width wise" across the map. As for them dropping Elites, that's a question of luck and not MF, I believe.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Mon May 22, 2006 4:02 pm

Those chests are always in the few houses that are angled "width wise" across the map. As for them dropping Elites, that's a question of luck and not MF, I believe.
Yes, it has nothing to do with magic find. For exceptionals prior to the expansion the game had a fixed percentage of chance to upgrade them (via difficultylevels.txt) from base to exceptional, it was 10/20% on nm and 20/40% on hell (for normal/>normal).

In LoD and 1.07+ the game uses a much more complex system, but basically, if armo/weap33+ is picked you get an exceptional and if armo/weap66+ is picked you'd get an elite.*


*The 33/66 are the closest to the actual values, but there could be discrepancy, the item levels in the txt were entered manually.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Char » Wed May 24, 2006 8:34 am

If you are really looking for a drop mod that "fixes" the system, there is lots of things you have to adress... The problem is that you would have to fix the items before you do so, since a good drop system is not really worth anything if the items are not good. If you ask me, here are the most important things that need to be adressed:

1. The first point of item generation is the determination of the base item. This is also the first point where the current system fails miserably: 95% of the base items dropped are crap. You have to wade through a LOT of breast plates until you will see a single elite armor.
2. The next point is the imbalance between magic/rare and unique/set items. Unique and set items are just better than rares in practically all cases (except for some really extremely rare rare circlets and maybe rings / amulets). This renders rares practically useless.
3. As Nefarius already told, the rares are, if generated, almost certainly crappy. So if you want to make rares the best items once again (like it was in the good, old classic times), you have to change them.
4. Boss runs.

What you can do about this, is rather clear. For the first point in the list, you need treasureclassex.txt, a rather scary file, I have to admit. But there is hope: A looong time ago, I made a spreadsheet that helps you calculate which items are dropped with which probability, so you can eliminate all the lowlevel drops (weap30 or something like that is the most likely automatic TC to drop off Baal) and shift the drops more to the highlevel items. You can find the spreadsheet here.
For the second point, you either disable uniques / sets, disable elite uniques / sets and all exceptional overpowered ones (+SoJ), or rebalance them (= lots of work). You can also do that for the obscenely overpowered runewords, although its not likely that anyone will really get them in SP anyways.
For the rares, the first thing to do is to make use of the rarity field. But not the way blizzard did (making good affixes rare) but the way you should (making useful affixes common). Make all affixes of one class (i.e. dmg%) have the same rarity, so that the high affixes are equally likely as the low ones at least, and then enhance the rarity for required affixes a lot. What I mean with this, is that a weapon without dmg% affix is basically useless, so you should ensure that at least 80-90% of the rare weapons have a damage-enhancing affix (you cannot for magic items, since they get a prefix only 50% of the time) by boosting the rarity of those affixes from 5 to maybe 50. You do not have to be afraid that your rares are getting "too good" cause there will always be better ones. To make rares always drop as toprares, you have to overdo what I described above A LOT.
For boss runs, just make bosses drop as normal monsters :P. Also, if rares are more or less common in other areas of the game as well, and uniques are not the best items anymore (not counting RWs), the desire to find uniques will drop, and thus the desire to run bosses.

As for a mod having these features, I tried to implement them in my own mod. It does a lot of other modifications as well, though. However, if you are interested, find it in my signature :).

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by misharohac » Wed May 24, 2006 9:25 am

Char";p="272065" wrote:1. The first point of item generation is the determination of the base item ... you need treasureclassex.txt
A "quick fix" for this problem is to go into tcEx and edit the last column in most rows, the one that downgrades the drop to the next lower TC. For the higher TC's these figures are astronomical.

The chance to downgrade to the next lower treasure class is literally hundreds of times greater than picking an item from the class that the monster has listed in monstats. You then get the chain-reaction effect that translates into Hell Baal dropping Breast Plates and even Caps.

So simply go through TCEX and slash those downgrade probabilities.
Char";p="272065" wrote:Unique and set items are just better than rares in practically all cases ... the first thing to do is to make use of the rarity field (etc)
Yes, the rarity field is a good idea... another way to do this is to limit low-level affixes by giving them a maximum level, so you will no longer get rares in NM and Hell with +12 to stamina and +3-7 fire damage.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Wed May 24, 2006 11:21 am

1. The first point of item generation is the determination of the base item. This is also the first point where the current system fails miserably: 95% of the base items dropped are crap. You have to wade through a LOT of breast plates until you will see a single elite armor.
The way I plan to achieve just this is to create 24 base TCs for armo/weap

Early Act 1: 3-9
Late Act 1: 6-12

Early Act 2: 9-15
Late Act 2: 12-18

Early Act 3: 15-21
Late Act 3: 18-24

Act 4: 21-27

Act 5: 24-33

On NM the above is boosted by 33 levels,
Likewise, on hell the NM levels are again boosted by 33.

There is no downgrading between these groups. Now, I made there be a fixed chance that they will be upgraded on NM/HELL.

For example the game has a 33% chance to drop exceptionals on NM and a 67% chance to drop exceptionals on hell.
For elite the chance is 33% on hell.

To make this possible the qLvls of the base gear must be re-aranged (the base gear stats are unbalanced too, and quite desynced), set up a formula for the stats, dont enter them manually.

2. The next point is the imbalance between magic/rare and unique/set items. Unique and set items are just better than rares in practically all cases (except for some really extremely rare rare circlets and maybe rings / amulets). This renders rares practically useless.
The major problem is that most of the uniques have no penalty, put some curses on them (a la D1) or make unique items have x2 stat requirements. With a curse or two even the most unbalanced abomination looses its bite. Get original here - but don't make the item totally useless. Also, the damage of uniques should be lower then rares a la 1.06: the major problem is that uniques and runewords are guaranteed to spawn with 100-300% ED, reduce the damage and ac bonus, and people will use other stuff in conjunction with them. D2 is about damage, you can't change that - it isn't an RPG, it's a hack n' slash - so its speed/damage/speed/damage/speed/damage/damage/damage...

3. As Nefarius already told, the rares are, if generated, almost certainly crappy. So if you want to make rares the best items once again (like it was in the good, old classic times), you have to change them.
For a real classic simulation, reduce the number of affixes to ca. 100 and set the rarity on everything to 1. The major problem besides the rarity is the quantity of sh!t (like 3 low resistance affixes for each resistance).

For "many affix" mods, set the rarity of everything of a group to the same value (as Char also said), and make sure to use maxlevel. There is _no_ reason that the 3 lowest affixes should spawn on items dropped by a high end unit. It only screws up the drops and makes everyone unhappy. As long as half of the affixes are available at any point it should be fine.

So lets say we have 8 affixes for damage%, the first 4 are limited by maxlevel.

Code: Select all

stat     value      level     maxlevel
dmg%     10-20          1           36
dmg%     21-30         10           45
dmg%     31-40         19           54
dmg%     41-60         28           63
dmg%     61-80         37
dmg%    81-100         46
dmg%   101-150         55
dmg%   151-200         64
4. Boss runs.
As I described in detail above the problem here is that bosses have too good chance to drop >magic quality. Make it like in classic, they should only drop 1 unique/rare/set when you first kill them. Otherwise they drop 3-4 magic items/gems etc. Simply leave the set,rare,unique columns 0.
Last edited by Nefarius on Wed May 24, 2006 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Brother Laz » Wed May 24, 2006 12:49 pm

Nefarius";p="272089" wrote:The way I plan to achieve just this is to create 24 base TCs for armo/weap

Early Act 1: 3-9
Late Act 1: 6-12

(...)

Act 5: 24-33
So, if you're a sorc with 12 strength and want a good rare quilted armor, you have to go back to Act 1 and farm for +5 mana ones?
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y dont u play the game the way its supposta be played? -SlothNathan

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Nefarius
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Wed May 24, 2006 12:58 pm

First of all, no pain - no gain. Either invest points to get a light plate later on or use sucky items ("shrined to death" sorcerers in D1 anyone :P)

Also, the sorc could still find quiltedleather/studded armors with good stats, on Act 1 NM/Hell.

But the point remains, either invest points/use +str gear or use bad gear, I see nothing wrong in there.

Of course, the problem is the base items are not balanced at all, I created 11 metallic and 11 leather armors to spread across all levels. (metallic items disable spell casting when equipped)


PS: Name the chance of finding a "good rare quilted armor" in vanilla LoD :twisted: It's lower then in my system :P
Last edited by Nefarius on Wed May 24, 2006 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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