How many drops are enough?

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<t>Are 9 items enough for one drop?</t>

Sure
2
10%
6 were enough
5
25%
make it 10
3
15%
No way, infinite drops yeah!
1
5%
Less than 6 ought to be enough
9
45%
 
Total votes: 20

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Char » Wed May 24, 2006 1:02 pm

Hmm, I just wanted to write the same as Brother Laz.

Your system looks nice, but the problem is that the items that can drop are pretty restricted. You can see this as positive as well, if you like: If you are looking for a shadow bow (rare) and nothing else, just go to the appropriate level (probably end of act2 or beginning of act3).
However, if you are really looking for lowlevel gear due to strength requirements, you have to go to strange areas. Especially if you just NEED a normal item for whatever reason, then you have to go to NM difficulty because on hell, no normal items drop. And you might grow tired of all the sacred armors dropping in late act5 hell.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Wed May 24, 2006 1:16 pm

Lol m8, you too misunderstood how my system works :mrgreen:
I never said there are no normal items. Just that there is an upgrade chance of 33% and 67% on nightmare/hell for exceptionals and a 33% that an exceptional drop is upgraded to elite on hell.





Normal: all normal items
Nightmare: Chance to drop normal TC 67%, chance to drop exceptionals 33%
Hell: Chance to drop nightmare TC 67%, chance to drop elites 33%

So also on hell you can find the base normal items. They will just, unlike vanilla, be less common then the exceptionals/elite ones.



This is the closest one can get to the classic system. Also, the requirement issue is a problem with the base items themselves as I stated before.



EDIT: Also, why should we encourage people to make "12 strength" chars, I see no point in that, if someone wants to make that char they have to pay a price (such as not having good gear). Since the only thing a 12 strength sorc would be is a sorc investing all points in vit/enr, and str is USELESS at present other then meeting stat requirements.
Last edited by Nefarius on Wed May 24, 2006 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Brother Laz » Wed May 24, 2006 1:36 pm

Nefarius";p="272099" wrote:But the point remains, either invest points/use +str gear or use bad gear, I see nothing wrong in there.
I do: -10% run speed on heavy armors. Or how about champion swords vs colossus swords? (-10 vs +10...) There are plenty of reasons why one would not want to use the highest level items.

......
Nefarius";p="272102" wrote: Lol m8, you too misunderstood how my system works :mrgreen:
I never said there are no normal items. Just that there is an upgrade chance of 33% and 67% on nightmare/hell for exceptionals and a 33% that an exceptional drop is upgraded to elite on hell.
We weren't talking about normal vs. exceptional vs. elite, but about low-end base items vs. high end base items...
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Wed May 24, 2006 1:50 pm

Brother Laz";p="272104" wrote:I do: -10% run speed on heavy armors. Or how about champion swords vs colossus swords? (-10 vs +10...) There are plenty of reasons why one would not want to use the highest level items.
......
1. Light Plates (as I said two times, the base qLvls of the items are out of sync, the drop system will only work properly when this is fixed as well)
2. Both of them fall into the same TC range, so both are available at the same time.



Brother Laz";p="272104" wrote:We weren't talking about normal vs. exceptional vs. elite, but about low-end base items vs. high end base items...
That was aimed at what char said "Especially if you just NEED a normal item for whatever reason, then you have to go to NM difficulty because on hell, no normal items drop."
Last edited by Nefarius on Wed May 24, 2006 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Char » Wed May 24, 2006 2:09 pm

hmmm. what you say is kinda strange. 67% chance for excep item, 33% chance for elite ----> does that mean 67+33 = 100% for excep OR elite? or 33% normal, 34% excep, 33% elite?
somehow our discussion has not much to do with the original topic anymore... :)

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Hoob » Wed May 24, 2006 2:28 pm

The answer to the question depends on what approach your mod has taken. There are 3 that come to mind, I'll go into more detail on each if you want:

Low potential Low good Low challenge: In this, few items can even potentially be good, of these few actually are good, but it doesn't matter because even though your best item is the 48% enhanced defense 7% lightning resist 5% poison resist rare demonhide gloves of unterness you have been using for the past 30 levels due to a lack of a better drop you will still have little to no difficulties with the game. Vanilla takes this approach, as do many mods. The flaw is once someone beats the 1 in 100k odds to get a nice item, bye bye game difficulty.

High potential Low good Variable challenge: In this quite a few items have the potential to be good, but few actually are. This can be accomplished in a number of ways, including but not limited to simply having units drop lots of items, making items of a higher quality (especially rares, nefarius' suggestion works wonders here!), or having a lot of items with a massive variable spread where the low end is crap no matter how you spin it, but the high end is anywhere from good to godly. The challenge varies, sometimes it is incredibly easy, other times it is incredibly difficult, and it can also be somewhere in between. Where the challenge falls into this will determine how it turns out. Since it is an extremely luck based system the higher the challenge the more likely a player with bad luck is to get stuck. Some mods take this approach. If the challenge is set too high your players will hate you, as they will be spending the majority of their time mass farming to attempt to get lucky with your luck based system and be able to proceed.

High potential High good High challenge: In this lots of items can potentially be good, and many of them actually are. However the challenge is balanced around having at least decent items, so it is less prone to being made trivial over time as the low drop systems are, where all you need to do is get lucky and find 1 good item and the entire game becomes a joke. In such a system there is far less variance between the low end and the high end, so player luck plays less of a role. However there is still enough of it for those players currently at the low end or in the middle to strive to improve themselves, without feeling like doing so will make a joke out of the game. Such a system is the most effective in my opinion, provided there are no items so good they become must haves, such as marrowwalks for necros, especially bone necros. Other examples exist as well, but that's one of the bigger ones. That, and it just doesn't feel like an artificial challenge, it feels like you're going all out and STILL being challenged.

Anyways...

If you're taking the first approach, chances are whatever it is set at now is fine.

For the second approach, a suitably high number will do. As in > 6.

For the third you should not need more than 6 because if done properly, uniques/sets/runes/good rares/etc will be fairly common as it is, anything more than 6 would be major overkill. Note that part of the third involves greatly diminishing or removing the effect of the magic find mod, in my opinion this is a good thing as all it really does is lead to more caster favortism, especially sorcs.

Also note a no drop of 0 if it isn't already makes a large difference in drop quantity as well, as anything with it set to 0 will always drop the maximum drops regardless of player count. However if your mod is balanced around multiplayer you should not do this, as as soon as they figure it out they will all solo, ESPECIALLY if they favor farming. Even if you made your mod impossible to solo (or so you think) they'll find a way, or at best do some extremely elitist style grouping. I've seen this happen firsthand in similar circumstances.

If your mod is balanced around soloing you don't have to worry about it though.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Wed May 24, 2006 2:42 pm

I think this should explain it: ;)

Base TC Tables:


[pre]A1E armo3 1 weap3 1 armo6 1 weap6 1 armo9 1 weap9 1
A1L armo6 1 weap6 1 armo9 1 weap9 1 armo12 1 weap12 1
A2E armo9 1 weap9 1 armo12 1 weap12 1 armo15 1 weap15 1
A2L armo12 1 weap12 1 armo15 1 weap15 1 armo18 1 weap18 1
A3E armo15 1 weap15 1 armo18 1 weap18 1 armo21 1 weap21 1
A3L armo18 1 weap18 1 armo21 1 weap21 1 armo24 1 weap24 1
A4 armo21 1 weap21 1 armo24 1 weap24 1 armo27 1 weap27 1
A5 armo24 1 weap24 1 armo27 1 weap27 1 armo30 1 weap30 1
A1En armo33 1 weap33 1 armo36 1 weap36 1 armo39 1 weap39 1
A1Ln armo36 1 weap36 1 armo39 1 weap39 1 armo42 1 weap42 1
A2En armo39 1 weap39 1 armo42 1 weap42 1 armo45 1 weap45 1
A2Ln armo42 1 weap42 1 armo45 1 weap45 1 armo48 1 weap48 1
A3En armo45 1 weap45 1 armo48 1 weap48 1 armo51 1 weap51 1
A3Ln armo48 1 weap48 1 armo51 1 weap51 1 armo54 1 weap54 1
A4n armo51 1 weap51 1 armo54 1 weap54 1 armo57 1 weap57 1
A5n armo54 1 weap54 1 armo57 1 weap57 1 armo60 1 weap60 1
A1Eh armo63 1 weap63 1 armo66 1 weap66 1 armo69 1 weap69 1
A1Lh armo66 1 weap66 1 armo69 1 weap69 1 armo72 1 weap72 1
A2Eh armo69 1 weap69 1 armo72 1 weap72 1 armo75 1 weap75 1
A2Lh armo72 1 weap72 1 armo75 1 weap75 1 armo78 1 weap78 1
A3Eh armo75 1 weap75 1 armo78 1 weap78 1 armo81 1 weap81 1
A3Lh armo78 1 weap78 1 armo81 1 weap81 1 armo84 1 weap84 1
A4h armo81 1 weap81 1 armo84 1 weap84 1 armo87 1 weap87 1
A5h armo84 1 weap84 1 armo87 1 weap87 1 armo90 1 weap90 1
[/pre]



Unit TC Table:


[pre]Early Act 1 A1E 1
Late Act 1 A1L 1
Early Act 2 A2E 1
Late Act 2 A2L 1
Early Act 3 A3E 1
Late Act 3 A3L 1
All Act 4 A4 1
All Act 5 A5 1
Early NM Act1 Early Act 1 2 A1En 1
Late NM Act1 Late Act 1 2 A1Ln 1
Early NM Act2 Early Act 2 2 A2En 1
Late NM Act2 Late Act 2 2 A2Ln 1
Early NM Act3 Early Act 3 2 A3En 1
Late NM Act3 Late Act 3 2 A3Ln 1
All NM Act4 All Act 4 2 A4n 1
All NM Act5 All Act 5 2 A5n 1
Early HELL Act1 Early NM Act1 2 A1Eh 1
Late HELL Act1 Late NM Act1 2 A1Lh 1
Early HELL Act2 Early NM Act2 2 A2Eh 1
Late HELL Act2 Late NM Act2 2 A2Lh 1
Early HELL Act3 Early NM Act3 2 A3Eh 1
Late HELL Act3 Late NM Act3 2 A3Lh 1
All HELL Act4 All NM Act4 2 A4h 1
All HELL Act5 All NM Act5 2 A5h 1[/pre]





---

And yes, this is getting of topic, if we continue this discussion I'll split the topic into two.
Last edited by Nefarius on Wed May 24, 2006 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Hoob » Wed May 24, 2006 3:03 pm

EDIT: Also, why should we encourage people to make "12 strength" chars, I see no point in that, if someone wants to make that char they have to pay a price (such as not having good gear). Since the only thing a 12 strength sorc would be is a sorc investing all points in vit/enr, and str is USELESS at present other then meeting stat requirements.
Make sure regardless of what approach you take you don't make str and dex bonuses too common, or you'll get a mod where every character is pure vita yet still wearing or capable of wearing a sacred armor and having max block with a 40% block shield. :roll:

On the other hand it would be very easy to balance the difficulty of such a mod, as there is far lower variance, especially in life totals. But that's where balancing the variance comes in. More = players have more options but less = your job is easier. Happy mediums are hard to achieve here. I suspect I am getting offtopic here as well though. :P

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by EzechielP » Mon May 29, 2006 1:44 pm

I just implemented a little something in my Mod-Update. (you can check it in my post in the Faith-Discussion,see signature!)

All TC's that contained weapXX armoXX or bowXX had this downgrade propability, right? It might be a cheap effort but I thought it could be a start (amoung other balancing stuff I made in my FAITH Update) so I just made that downgradeprops half the value they were. So from now on Armor and Weapons of higher types should drop twice as often, right?

I think this topic isn't going off topic that much, because it's still about drops ain't it? So I think anything related from drop-props to # of drops could and should be covered...
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Post by Char » Mon May 29, 2006 1:51 pm

you better divide all the values by 10, cause they are just insanely high.....

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by EzechielP » Mon May 29, 2006 2:07 pm

Since the idea already crossed my mind when I saw that high numbers I'll actually do that for the next update.

I too wondered if there are other unbalanced TCs or anything that should be addressed?
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Mon May 29, 2006 3:14 pm

runes ;)

I posted a chart in GMM showing the current rarity, you'd get 1 zod for each 250K els. This is way beyond scope of SP.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by EzechielP » Mon May 29, 2006 3:24 pm

I was aware of that :mrgreen: thus, I implemented a more fair drop rate for Runes in my Mod almost since the beginning of it. I think I divided that impossible-to-bear downgrade chances for high runes by 500 and made the other chances grow linear to that value (hope you can figure out what I mean, kind of losing my english practice)
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by misharohac » Tue May 30, 2006 8:58 am

250000 / 500 = 500

So your downgrade chance for a Zod is about 500:1? That's still pretty high for SP, especially considering that not a lot of monsters can actually drop the highest Rune class.

If all else remains the same as in Vanilla...
  • which monsters can drop what
  • the usefulness of runes
  • which runewords need the high runes
... then I would go about 100 to 1 downgrade chance for the Zod rune. Because honestly, how many are you actually going to use?

This is of course personal opinion, and if you change the usefulness of the Zod (i.e. by giving it +3 to all skills), then it's an entirely different matter.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Tue May 30, 2006 9:34 am

Zod is actually quite useful, remember ethereal elite uniques with then become that tad bit more overpowered damage wise.
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Post by misharohac » Tue May 30, 2006 9:47 am

True, no doubt. Because online there is a pool of high-end ethereal uniques that you can trade for and socket with Zod for your ultimate weapon.

But in SP, how many high-end ethereal uniques are you going to find and actually use? I think in SP, the value of Vanilla Zod is therefore much less than online, certainly less that 250000:1 and less than 500:1 IMO.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Tue May 30, 2006 9:56 am

It all depends on the drop system, if you reduce the downgrading, the drops of ethereal uniques will be _a lot_ more frequent then vanilla, so the chance to find one goes way up and so will the "price" of Zod.

Not only ethereal uniques, if you improve rare items the way advocated by myself and others in many posts then they have potential to be a lot deadlier then the current uniques (as they might end up with high ED, IAS, dual leech + other stuff), if they are ethereal ontop of this and elite you have one lean mean killin machine.
Last edited by Nefarius on Tue May 30, 2006 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Ulmo » Tue May 30, 2006 2:25 pm

misharohac";p="272784" wrote:[...]considering that not a lot of monsters can actually drop the highest Rune class.
Due to the TC upgrade system, most champions/uniques can drop Zod since the middle of Act1, and most Act5 monsters can too.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Tue May 30, 2006 2:47 pm

Due to the TC upgrade system, most champions/uniques can drop Zod since the middle of Act1, and most Act5 monsters can too.
To be precise every area with a level at or beyond dLvl 81. (tc level is 85, champions/boss get +4 bonus)

Only champions/Bosses

Act 1 - Cave 3 Treasure
Act 1 - Cave 4 Treasure
Act 1 - Crypt 1 A
Act 1 - Moo Moo Farm
Act 2 - Tomb 2 B
Act 2 - Tomb 3 A
Act 2 - Tomb 2 Treasure
Act 2 - Tomb 3 Treasure
Act 2 - Lair 1 A
Act 2 - Lair 1 B
Act 3 - Kurast 2
Act 3 - Kurast 3
Act 3 - Kurast 4
Act 3 - Travincal
Act 3 - Dungeon 1 B
Act 3 - Dungeon 2 A
Act 3 - Dungeon 2 B
Act 3 - Dungeon 1 Treasure
Act 3 - Dungeon 2 Treasure
Act 3 - Sewer 1
Act 3 - Temple 1
Act 3 - Temple 2
Act 3 - Temple 3
Act 3 - Mephisto 1
Act 3 - Mephisto 2
Act 3 - Mephisto 3
Act 4 - Mesa 1
Act 4 - Mesa 2
Act 4 - Mesa 3
Act 5 - Barricade 1
Act 5 - Barricade 2
Act 5 - Ice Cave 1
Act 5 - Ice Cave 1A
Act 5 - Ice Cave 2
Act 5 - Ice Cave 2A
Act 5 - Barricade Snow
Act 5 - Ice Cave 3
Act 5 - Ice Cave 3A
Act 5 - Temple Entrance
Act 5 - Temple 1
Act 5 - Temple 2
Act 5 - Temple Boss
Act 5 - Hell 1
Act 5 - Hell 2
Act 5 - Hell 3
Act 5 - Pandemonium 1
Act 5 - Pandemonium 2
Act 5 - Pandemonium 3
Act 5 - Pandemonium Finale



All monsters


Act 1 - Cave 5
Act 1 - Cave 5 Treasure
Act 2 - Lair 1 Treasure
Act 2 - Sewer 2 A
Act 3 - Sewer 2
Act 3 - Temple 4
Act 3 - Temple 5
Act 3 - Temple 6
Act 4 - Lava 1
Act 4 - Diablo 1
Act 5 - Baal Temple 1
Act 5 - Baal Temple 2
Act 5 - Baal Temple 3
Act 5 - Throne Room
Act 5 - World Stone
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Char » Tue May 30, 2006 3:02 pm

I thought it was +4 for bosses and +3 for champions? Whatever... doesnt eliminate your point ;).

About the Zod rarity: I have my Zod at 1 in 1000, Cham at 1 in 750, Wu (3rd highest rune) at 1 in 550 or something, Ist (4th highest) at 1 in 400 maybe.
Anyways, I have personally found pretty much every rune in my mod except for Cham. And I dont play that much.
Zod is a pretty damn powerful rune if you get a good ethereal item, and also remember that there are runewords including Zod runes. If you reduce Zod to 1 in 100, pretty much everyone will have a BotD sooner or later if you do not remove it from the game.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Hoob » Tue May 30, 2006 3:08 pm

I think it was 3/2, not 4/3. Anyways, carry on.

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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by Nefarius » Tue May 30, 2006 3:18 pm

The LevelAdd function in D2Game adds +3, I just checked the code. I think the +4 was an old value.

So you can strip all the areas with dLvl 81 from my list, Zod drops in dLvl 82+ areas.
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Re: How many drops are enough?

Post by EzechielP » Wed May 31, 2006 2:53 pm

Well actually my Runes 17 TC ended up with
Zod Rune prop1, Ab Rune (a new rune in my mod) prop1, Runes16 prop320

And I actually made the Runes17 Drop slightly more common on some Special Bosses, however in my new dungeon I actually found 2 Zods in LAN MP with a friend from normal monsters... 8-O So i guess 2:320 might be enough. And since I brought the 1.10 Rune upgrade recipes into 1.09 I never thought it would be a problem to get a Zod anymore.

By the way I updated my mod again, so the armoXX, weapXX and bowXX downgrade chances are now 10 times lower than in Vanilla D2 v1.09 (as Char suggested ;) ). I crosschecked the values with the 1.10 txt-files and learned that in there they already reduced the downgrade values from ~4500 to ~1500-2200
Last edited by EzechielP on Wed May 31, 2006 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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