Trimming the skill trees
Moderator: Nefarius
- Frain Breeze
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:35 am
- Location: New Jersey
Trimming the skill trees
I'm thinking of getting back into modding, and I'd like to take a "less is more" approach. First off, kill all the pointless skills.
Assume that all damaging skills will be balanced to each other, so I'm not just looking at "get rid of the weak ones." What I'm looking to get rid of are skills that offer no meaningful change to gameplay. Things that every character "must max", things that are "just x but as fire damage instead," and things that just can't be fixed or balanced appropriately. I want it to feel like something is different when you start using a new skill. So, what skills would you cut out and why?
Here's what I see as likely targets. For reference, my mod plan includes removal of skill synergies, nerfing +skills, and instead providing other means of increasing damage. I'd also like to reduce the need for Area of Effect skills and leech. I also think mana should come from points in energy, not "what you get from leveling" and +500 from gear.
Amazon:
-Bow skills: Most of the elemental arrows due to massive redundancy. Magic, Fire, and Cold arrows are essentially normal attack. I may keep one, but revamp it to be a one-target heavy hitter.
-Spear/Jav: The unused electrical spear/jav skills. It is simply confusing when there are half a dozen skills that all equate to "pointy stick plus lightning"
-Passive/Magic: Not sure.
Assassin:
-Traps: The bugged inferno trap is definitely out. Not sure what else, as even the blade skills (especially sentry) could shine with some proper balance.
-Martial Arts: The single-element charge-ups seem pointless when Phoenix Strike is around. I'm not sure if Cobra Strike can be balanced into anything other than a 1-point wonder.
-Shadow: Not sure.
Barbarian:
-Combat: At least one out of Bash, Stun, or possibly Concentrate. They're all basically "Normal Attack with added safety"
-Masteries: Increased Stamina for sure. Is there any way to combine the weapon masteries into something like all 1handed, all 2handed, and all throwing?
-Warcries: Battle Orders. Why are there "mandatory" skills like this? Just have the barb get more life normally. Grim Ward just doesn't fit with the play style. Howl sort of does, but is made redundant by War Cry which does mostly the same job but keeps enemies within beatstick range.
Druid:
-Shapeshifting: Lycanthropy... just make the individual skills better. Not sure what else should go.
-Elemental: Not sure, haven't really used these much.
-Summoning: Another I haven't tried often enough.
Necromancer:
-Summoning: Masteries. Again, just make the base skill better.
-Curses: Weakn is pointless with Decrepify around. Life Tap is a 1-point leech-god. Iron Maiden... really just depends on how monsters are balanced. I'll keep IM as long as I don't need to give it "+1 million % damage reflected" or something absurd like that.
-Poison & Bone: Either bone wall or bone prison has to go due to redundancy. Not sure what else.
Paladin:
-Combat: Holy Bolt... mods are played single player, and you can heal your merc with potions. Conversion gets you a temporary minion that will then turn on you. Sacrifice is just suicide.
-Offensive Auras: Definite redundancy in the physical department. The elemental auras are all copies as well, though Holy Freeze at least has the chill factor.
-Defensive Auras: Individual resist auras.
Sorceress:
-Fire: Fire Bolt is just ranged normal attack in terms of gameplay. Inferno is bugged. Blaze just isn't fun to use. Mastery is just a point-waster.
-Cold: How about just one armor spell? Ice Bolt or Ice Blast could be dropped as well. Mastery is just a point-waster.
-Lightning: Static Field is hard to balance, Telekinesis is kinda pointless. Mastery is just a point-waster.
Assume that all damaging skills will be balanced to each other, so I'm not just looking at "get rid of the weak ones." What I'm looking to get rid of are skills that offer no meaningful change to gameplay. Things that every character "must max", things that are "just x but as fire damage instead," and things that just can't be fixed or balanced appropriately. I want it to feel like something is different when you start using a new skill. So, what skills would you cut out and why?
Here's what I see as likely targets. For reference, my mod plan includes removal of skill synergies, nerfing +skills, and instead providing other means of increasing damage. I'd also like to reduce the need for Area of Effect skills and leech. I also think mana should come from points in energy, not "what you get from leveling" and +500 from gear.
Amazon:
-Bow skills: Most of the elemental arrows due to massive redundancy. Magic, Fire, and Cold arrows are essentially normal attack. I may keep one, but revamp it to be a one-target heavy hitter.
-Spear/Jav: The unused electrical spear/jav skills. It is simply confusing when there are half a dozen skills that all equate to "pointy stick plus lightning"
-Passive/Magic: Not sure.
Assassin:
-Traps: The bugged inferno trap is definitely out. Not sure what else, as even the blade skills (especially sentry) could shine with some proper balance.
-Martial Arts: The single-element charge-ups seem pointless when Phoenix Strike is around. I'm not sure if Cobra Strike can be balanced into anything other than a 1-point wonder.
-Shadow: Not sure.
Barbarian:
-Combat: At least one out of Bash, Stun, or possibly Concentrate. They're all basically "Normal Attack with added safety"
-Masteries: Increased Stamina for sure. Is there any way to combine the weapon masteries into something like all 1handed, all 2handed, and all throwing?
-Warcries: Battle Orders. Why are there "mandatory" skills like this? Just have the barb get more life normally. Grim Ward just doesn't fit with the play style. Howl sort of does, but is made redundant by War Cry which does mostly the same job but keeps enemies within beatstick range.
Druid:
-Shapeshifting: Lycanthropy... just make the individual skills better. Not sure what else should go.
-Elemental: Not sure, haven't really used these much.
-Summoning: Another I haven't tried often enough.
Necromancer:
-Summoning: Masteries. Again, just make the base skill better.
-Curses: Weakn is pointless with Decrepify around. Life Tap is a 1-point leech-god. Iron Maiden... really just depends on how monsters are balanced. I'll keep IM as long as I don't need to give it "+1 million % damage reflected" or something absurd like that.
-Poison & Bone: Either bone wall or bone prison has to go due to redundancy. Not sure what else.
Paladin:
-Combat: Holy Bolt... mods are played single player, and you can heal your merc with potions. Conversion gets you a temporary minion that will then turn on you. Sacrifice is just suicide.
-Offensive Auras: Definite redundancy in the physical department. The elemental auras are all copies as well, though Holy Freeze at least has the chill factor.
-Defensive Auras: Individual resist auras.
Sorceress:
-Fire: Fire Bolt is just ranged normal attack in terms of gameplay. Inferno is bugged. Blaze just isn't fun to use. Mastery is just a point-waster.
-Cold: How about just one armor spell? Ice Bolt or Ice Blast could be dropped as well. Mastery is just a point-waster.
-Lightning: Static Field is hard to balance, Telekinesis is kinda pointless. Mastery is just a point-waster.
- Desocupado
- Angel
- Posts: 548
- Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:26 pm
- Location: Brazil
Re: Trimming the skill trees
If you want, you can try a system similar to mine:
1 - All skills max at level 1
2 - You only get skill points from quests and a starter potion.
3 - With a new stat, "+all skills per level" I can balance skills with character level (I put it on a passive/aura, so all skills automatically level up).
From what you are saying you'd like to remove 3-4 skills per tab (which I also find a good move)
As for individual skills, here's some ideas:
Amazon:
Bow skills: Good plan, I"d remove one cold (single target freeze), one fire (explosion) and strafe/guided (both are too lazy)
-Spear/Jav: Poison Javelin (doesn't take much skill), and Power (single) and Charged bolt "Strike".
-Passive/Magic: Dropplezon, Dodge (preferably the one for melee) and Inner sight.
Assassin:
-Traps: Inferno trap (doesn't work so well), Death Sentry (corpse is a bit too strong) and Blade Fury (not really a trap)
-Martial Arts: The kicks are mostly bugged/hard to balance, so both I'd remove Talon and Tail. Tiger Strike is hard to balance too, so it might be a goner (make single elemental much stronger than Phoenix versions)
-Shadow: Shadow Master (It's a bit to powerful) Cloak of Shadows/Mind Blast (ridiculous powerful against AI), Psichic Hammer (useless like Telekinesis)
Barbarian:
-Combat: Bash, Leap, Double Swing (a bit powerful, due how frames work)
-Masteries: You can remove weapon masteries and make ATK rating, Crushing Blow, open wounds and such stats instead.
-Warcries: I'd remove Grim Ward and Find "stuff". The other shouts just need rebalance, and maybe not stacking between themselves.
Druid:
-Shapeshifting: Remove bear, make all skills usable when wolf, of course the build up ones shouldn't stack (states edition).
-Elemental: Remove At least 2 fire skills and a wind one.
-Summoning: Just remove one of each type of summon.
Necromancer:
-Summoning: Masteries. You can remove corpse requirement form skills, and send golems away. Actually I find the passives pretty adequate in this tree, to balance the summons (since necro spends more skill points his summons are stronger than other classes)
-Curses: Weaken, Life Tap, Dim vision are the most problematic (Decrepify need a nerf tough)
-Poison & Bone: Bone prison, Poison Explosion and Teeth.
Paladin:
-Combat: Holy Bolt, Sacrifice and Smite
-Offensive Auras: Remove Might, Blessed Aim and Sanctuary (change the other to have different strengths, like Holy fire having the best area damage/radius, Concentrate making all attack really uniterruptible and so on)
-Defensive Auras: Individual resist auras are boring indeed.
Sorceress:
-Fire: Fire Bolt, Inferno (the bug is mostly damage calculation in the end) Mastery. I'd keep Blaze (just tweak the duration, Duriel won't regret it)
-Cold: Frost armor, Shiver armor and Ice Bolt (and mastery since you don't like them).
-Lightning: Static Field is hard to balance (because the other spells do bad damage and elemental resistance isn't well distributed) Telekinesis and Mastery.
1 - All skills max at level 1
2 - You only get skill points from quests and a starter potion.
3 - With a new stat, "+all skills per level" I can balance skills with character level (I put it on a passive/aura, so all skills automatically level up).
From what you are saying you'd like to remove 3-4 skills per tab (which I also find a good move)
As for individual skills, here's some ideas:
Amazon:
Bow skills: Good plan, I"d remove one cold (single target freeze), one fire (explosion) and strafe/guided (both are too lazy)
-Spear/Jav: Poison Javelin (doesn't take much skill), and Power (single) and Charged bolt "Strike".
-Passive/Magic: Dropplezon, Dodge (preferably the one for melee) and Inner sight.
Assassin:
-Traps: Inferno trap (doesn't work so well), Death Sentry (corpse is a bit too strong) and Blade Fury (not really a trap)
-Martial Arts: The kicks are mostly bugged/hard to balance, so both I'd remove Talon and Tail. Tiger Strike is hard to balance too, so it might be a goner (make single elemental much stronger than Phoenix versions)
-Shadow: Shadow Master (It's a bit to powerful) Cloak of Shadows/Mind Blast (ridiculous powerful against AI), Psichic Hammer (useless like Telekinesis)
Barbarian:
-Combat: Bash, Leap, Double Swing (a bit powerful, due how frames work)
-Masteries: You can remove weapon masteries and make ATK rating, Crushing Blow, open wounds and such stats instead.
-Warcries: I'd remove Grim Ward and Find "stuff". The other shouts just need rebalance, and maybe not stacking between themselves.
Druid:
-Shapeshifting: Remove bear, make all skills usable when wolf, of course the build up ones shouldn't stack (states edition).
-Elemental: Remove At least 2 fire skills and a wind one.
-Summoning: Just remove one of each type of summon.
Necromancer:
-Summoning: Masteries. You can remove corpse requirement form skills, and send golems away. Actually I find the passives pretty adequate in this tree, to balance the summons (since necro spends more skill points his summons are stronger than other classes)
-Curses: Weaken, Life Tap, Dim vision are the most problematic (Decrepify need a nerf tough)
-Poison & Bone: Bone prison, Poison Explosion and Teeth.
Paladin:
-Combat: Holy Bolt, Sacrifice and Smite
-Offensive Auras: Remove Might, Blessed Aim and Sanctuary (change the other to have different strengths, like Holy fire having the best area damage/radius, Concentrate making all attack really uniterruptible and so on)
-Defensive Auras: Individual resist auras are boring indeed.
Sorceress:
-Fire: Fire Bolt, Inferno (the bug is mostly damage calculation in the end) Mastery. I'd keep Blaze (just tweak the duration, Duriel won't regret it)
-Cold: Frost armor, Shiver armor and Ice Bolt (and mastery since you don't like them).
-Lightning: Static Field is hard to balance (because the other spells do bad damage and elemental resistance isn't well distributed) Telekinesis and Mastery.
Re: Trimming the skill trees
Point wasters are sometimes useful. Or do you think a Sorceress with 3 skills of different elements being maxed would be balanced? Since synergies are also removed, even 4-5 skills could be maxed, unless you change the amount of skill points available.
- Frain Breeze
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:35 am
- Location: New Jersey
Re: Trimming the skill trees
I want to encourage the use of multiple skills for different situations. What's the point of having 30 skills per class if you only ever use 2 of them? Not counting stuff like 1-point wonders (which actually does include the masteries on many builds).
- Desocupado
- Angel
- Posts: 548
- Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:26 pm
- Location: Brazil
Re: Trimming the skill trees
Diablo 1.09 (or less) was like this. We had sorceress with meteor, frozen orb and thunder storm running wild.gcc" wrote:Point wasters are sometimes useful. Or do you think a Sorceress with 3 skills of different elements being maxed would be balanced? Since synergies are also removed, even 4-5 skills could be maxed, unless you change the amount of skill points available.
Then you need to make monster behave more differently. Examples:Frain Breeze" wrote:I want to encourage the use of multiple skills for different situations. What's the point of having 30 skills per class if you only ever use 2 of them? Not counting stuff like 1-point wonders (which actually does include the masteries on many builds).
An area where monsters are much more numerous make area spells godly but single target ones crap.
An area with slow moving zombie deadly at melee make slows/cold/run speed more important.
Lot's of ranged attacks (with low AR) make blocking bad and AC good.
Monsters guarding and Altar (stationary monster with an aura surrounded by javelin thrower AI, makes stuff like meteor good)
Chilling Armor makes an enemy troublesome for ranged fighting.
Re: Trimming the skill trees
You should provide some skills to put some points into them then, without great benefits. Players will usually max a passive skill which gives them only small benefits, as long as they are usable and needed in some way. Otherwise everyone will just max Frozen Orb, Meteor, Thunder Storm, and probably 1-2 more skills. Players will always use the strong skills, preferably high damage, easy aiming and a nice area of effect. Thunder Storm needs to be casted once, and then automatically attacks enemies for some time. Frozen Orb can be aimed somewhere nearby the monsters, and will chill and damage all of them. Meteor is harder to aim, but deals huge damage.Frain Breeze" wrote:I want to encourage the use of multiple skills for different situations. What's the point of having 30 skills per class if you only ever use 2 of them? Not counting stuff like 1-point wonders (which actually does include the masteries on many builds).
You got 3 different skills which have their own strengths. Each of them is useful in another situation. What you have to do now is getting the player in different situations.
To make more skills more useful you need to make monsters more different. Having to use different skills makes the game more difficult, but also more interesting. Casting Blessed Hammer while not having to worry about resists or immunities, defense and block chance all the time is boring.
Like Desocupado posted, a slow moving high damage zombie is an interesting target for a skill like Glacial Spike. When he is frozen, probably cast Meteor on him to finish him.
For a fast moving monster which cannot be chilled, you will need completely different skills. Meteor won't work since the monster is not stationary. Single target skills won't work well because it could be difficult to aim. Thunderstorm will always hit, but it's randomly hitting monsters.
Also monsters which grant an immunity aura to other monsters can be interesting. What about a monster that renders all nearby monsters immune to lightning but the monster granting the aura is immune to everything but lightning?
Blaze becomes interesting vs monsters that would kill the character too fast, and therefore the player has to run away. While running away he could already damage the monster. In regular D2 Blaze doesn't really make sense because you can kill any monster with Meteor and Frozen Orb (or just using 1 element and a merc with Infinity).
Regular monsters are fine too, so normal skeleton warriors which just attack in melee and have nothing special are ok. Just add some monsters to the mod which require other tactics, and the players will have to use other skills.
Once the monsters are more different, different skills also make sense. Even a lower damage skill can become useful then if it's just easier to aim at a fast moving target. It's bette to do low damage instead of no damage with a high damage, but not hitting skill.
What about giving teleport a debuff which lowers all resists (including physical and magic) by a percentage for a few seconds? It would make teleport more dangerous, unless the player uses specific gear. Or add a timer, massively lower block chance after casting, add a negative hp regen after casting, whatever. The negative effect could be reduced depending on skill level. That would encourage the player to use Teleport in special situations, or having to use special gear in order to get rid of the negaitve effects of the skill.
- Desocupado
- Angel
- Posts: 548
- Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:26 pm
- Location: Brazil
Re: Trimming the skill trees
GSC maybe a good point, while skills like concentrate make you stronger, you can make skill behave like Beserk, debuffing you, here a few examples of debuffs:
-Resistances (as gcc pointed)
-Mana regen (one of the mana regen stats can be negative, the other can't, if i'm not mistaken)
-Animation speed (move, attack and/or cast) - in fact the very skill can have it's own animation slower, if you use a state
Another way to toy around, is making dynamic formulas, like:
-Skill does +100% damage if you are at full HP
-Skill does bonus damage when you are at low health
-Skill does damage based on Mana (% or not)
-Skill takes a defensive stat and turn it into offensive (imagine if concentrate dealt +10% of Defense as extra dmg)
-Resistances (as gcc pointed)
-Mana regen (one of the mana regen stats can be negative, the other can't, if i'm not mistaken)
-Animation speed (move, attack and/or cast) - in fact the very skill can have it's own animation slower, if you use a state
Another way to toy around, is making dynamic formulas, like:
-Skill does +100% damage if you are at full HP
-Skill does bonus damage when you are at low health
-Skill does damage based on Mana (% or not)
-Skill takes a defensive stat and turn it into offensive (imagine if concentrate dealt +10% of Defense as extra dmg)