Thoughts/Ideas for modders

This is the place for people to research themes and ideas for their mods as well as for others to post their suggestions for mod makers to make use of.

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Doub
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Thoughts/Ideas for modders

Post by Doub » Thu May 01, 2014 12:10 am

There are a couple of mods i play currently and honestly i dont know for how long i will keep playing D2 (always with mods) since its so limited by the number and the effects of attributes, also so limited variety of char builds!! (always compare to other games that exist nowadays)

As i said i play a couple of mods so i dont want to make the same suggestions on each mod's topic. So i make a general suggestion here.
D2 is a Class Based game and modders should stick om that little detail more than they think if they want to give challenging aspect to their mods. Its not fun when a Barbarian can cast as fast as a sorcerer and a sorcerer can attack as fast as a Barbarian. Barb and Sorc are just examples. I think you get what i mean.

There is a Diablo 1 Hellfire mod called: The Hell (best diablo 1 mod). In that mod all chars can use all skills as long as they have the required magic. Beside that, every class has 1-2 of his own skill. So the question is: how do the classes differ?? They differ because not all classes have the same casting speed, not all classes have the same attack speed with the same weapon type, not all classes deal the same damage with the same weapon type, not all classes wield a shield with the same effectivness ETC ! Classes have advantages and disadvantages wielding different types of weapons !!
Another thing, classes gain different bonuses from each attribute. just one example is: Not all classes take the same amount of life by Vitality.
And all this is done so well that every class feels unique and every class deals differently with the same enemy.

Now Diablo 2.
Add all the skills that make each class different, plus a good amount of uniques, cursed uniques, sets etc, plus justifiable difficulty, plus slow progress and dark atmosphere (i think its the only atmosphere that fits to a Diablo game).

Add bosses that specific classes/builds WONT BE able to kill until they take many more levels. For example if you come across such a boss at level 20, you will need to be level 40+ to be able to kill it. Ofc this always depends on the build and class.
As rewards they will carry important Set item parts, materials to craft specific items and maybe some kind of uniques !? who knows?!!?
One might say that if a Barb cant kill such a boss at level 20 and a Sorc can then i will level 20 a Sorc and take it down. Easy!! So for this case i suggest that this kind of bosses to start from second difficulty of the game. Dunno maybe you modders have better ideas on this.

So Examples of such bosses:
1)Add a boss than is way too hard to be killed by melee because: It is a rock golem with huge physical resistance and huge damage and can literally one "shot" you ! And maybe it has slow speed? but also a buff that increases speed for a short duration? who knows?!?
2)Add a ninja boss with high defense (defense = evasion), with high speed, attack speed and blink strikes that rapes all those with lack of endurance (life, physical resist).
3)Add a mad mage boss with powerful elemental spells.
4)Add a ranger Ghost/Spirit boss that will be immune to physical attacks and you will be able to kill it only with spells. But also being a ghost/spirit itself wont be able to harm you physically but only with magics.

You can think of many examples.
These bosses will be optional mostly so that they dont prevent the progress of the game.

btw one can add such monsters also and not only bosses, orrrrr only monstes? :)

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Re: Thoughts/Ideas for modders

Post by Desocupado » Fri May 02, 2014 4:19 am

Doub" wrote:D2 is a Class Based game and modders should stick om that little detail more than they think if they want to give challenging aspect to their mods. Its not fun when a Barbarian can cast as fast as a sorcerer and a sorcerer can attack as fast as a Barbarian. Barb and Sorc are just examples. I think you get what i mean.
Well that's usually the case.
Tough sometimes different builds are make totally different characters of the same class.
Doub" wrote:There is a Diablo 1 Hellfire mod called: The Hell (best diablo 1 mod). In that mod all chars can use all skills as long as they have the required magic. Beside that, every class has 1-2 of his own skill. So the question is: how do the classes differ?? They differ because not all classes have the same casting speed, not all classes have the same attack speed with the same weapon type, not all classes deal the same damage with the same weapon type, not all classes wield a shield with the same effectivness ETC ! Classes have advantages and disadvantages wielding different types of weapons !!
Do they? Or do they have lots of poor choices that you need to learn to not use/rely?
You could make all weapon class specific (and always be strong since only 1/7 of them will be equipable)

By the way you should try D2 mod "Back to hellfire" - it has several features in the way you seem to desire
Doub" wrote:Another thing, classes gain different bonuses from each attribute. just one example is: Not all classes take the same amount of life by Vitality.
And all this is done so well that every class feels unique and every class deals differently with the same enemy.
D2 stat point system is a mess indeed.

We have:
Str = melee weapon damage (armor and weapon requirements)
Dex = AR (or bow damage) - actually this one makes using bows somewhat different from meleeing (also weapon requirement)
Vit = How long it takes to kill you
Energy = How often you can use skills (poorly implemented - as it increases both mana regen and mana pool - making it either feast or famine scenarios)

Perhaps with different bonuses they would work better:

Guts/Strength = melee weapon damage and "Damage reduced by X" (so you ignore minor blows)
Agility/Quickness = AR and Attack/Cast Speed
Finesse/Mastery = Critical Hit chance and Skill effect bonuses
Endurance/Perseverance = Life, Mana and Stamina regeneration and Interruptible chance (or hit recovery)

(some) Passive skills could give additional bonuses based on attributes (other than finesse/mastery - which usually does it anyway). Examples:
  • Crushing blow based on Gut
  • Open wounds on Finesse
  • Thorns on endurance
This setup would allow build to somewhat feel different at their core:
A G.A. barbarian is a mindless offensive beast while a G.E barbarian is tough and tricky.
A Bow user could be more oriented to either attack speed (High Agility + Some Finesse) or skill usage (Balanced Finesse+Endurance)
A Caster could be a spell spammer (balanced cast speed / manapool) or a precision user (Max finesse)
Doub" wrote:Now Diablo 2.
Add all the skills that make each class different, plus a good amount of uniques, cursed uniques, sets etc, plus justifiable difficulty, plus slow progress and dark atmosphere (i think its the only atmosphere that fits to a Diablo game).
Classes really should feel different, good call. Just make sure it's not just how to itemize them.
(unique) Items should feel rewarding. - // don't think cursed weapons serve any purpose (make some item mods with drawbacks instead - a high weapon damage % modifier could also decrease your life maximum or life leach)

Slow progress... Actually, I'd rather suggest a smaller game (so you can try different builds or end up with different gear setup) always hardcore, so it requires player skill (if it's small enough, like 1/9 current length).

Dark atmosphere
  • Removing the hireling would give a feeling of loneness/helpless.
  • Reducing light radius (always night time)
  • Reducing run speed (or removing it altogether)
  • Using more indoor levels
Doub" wrote:Add bosses that specific classes/builds WONT BE able to kill until they take many more levels. For example if you come across such a boss at level 20, you will need to be level 40+ to be able to kill it. Ofc this always depends on the build and class.
As rewards they will carry important Set item parts, materials to craft specific items and maybe some kind of uniques !? who knows?!!?
One might say that if a Barb cant kill such a boss at level 20 and a Sorc can then i will level 20 a Sorc and take it down. Easy!! So for this case i suggest that this kind of bosses to start from second difficulty of the game. Dunno maybe you modders have better ideas on this.
I remember this feeling with the butcher in D1.
Well just build them with advantages that only work against specific characters:

Decreased Mana regenration aura/curse (pain for mages)
Chilling armor (pain for ranged)
Chain Lightning (pain for groups / pet users)
Some one with evasive AI and walk speed decrease aura (pain for melee)
Someone with low AR but high damage (pain for glass canon)
Someone with high attack rate but low damage (pain for people without damage reduced by x)

Doub" wrote:So Examples of such bosses:
1)Add a boss than is way too hard to be killed by melee because: It is a rock golem with huge physical resistance and huge damage and can literally one "shot" you ! And maybe it has slow speed? but also a buff that increases speed for a short duration? who knows?!?
2)Add a ninja boss with high defense (defense = evasion), with high speed, attack speed and blink strikes that rapes all those with lack of endurance (life, physical resist).
3)Add a mad mage boss with powerful elemental spells.
4)Add a ranger Ghost/Spirit boss that will be immune to physical attacks and you will be able to kill it only with spells. But also being a ghost/spirit itself wont be able to harm you physically but only with magics.
1 - The epitome of melee painful is cold damage, knockback and ranged (with an normally easily dodgeble missile)
2 - Make it has a strength that a mage won't have (it does several quick strikes for minor damage while mages lack damage reduced by x as suggested above is pretty good)
3 - Like Diablo or Baal (tough summoner AI is the best for it)
4 - Perhaps he could be melee and chase you around - another variation is one you can't target directly
Doub" wrote:You can think of many examples.
These bosses will be optional mostly so that they don't prevent the progress of the game.

btw one can add such monsters also and not only bosses, or only monsters? :)
Actually there are a few in game:
1 - Zombie (slow and high HP) and Brutes (melee + stun)
2 - Claw vipers (charge in and kill casters)
3 - Oblivion Mage (has curses, buffs and ranged spells)
4 - Fly Swarms (physical resistant/immune) Ghosts/Gloams (physical immunity and invisibility)
Last edited by Desocupado on Tue May 13, 2014 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts/Ideas for modders

Post by Doub » Mon May 12, 2014 1:43 pm

@Desocupado
Yes, some weapons are poor choice for some classes. Whats so weird about it? it makes absolute sense. Diablo 2 is CLASS BASED game...
For example a Barbarian can have disadvantages such as low attack speed, low accuracy etc with bows/crossbows/staves/daggers/claws and advantages such as faster attack speed, more critical chance, better accuracy etc with heavy two-handed weapons and most one-handed weapons.

A paladin can have advantages over shields, one-hand swords and blunts.
Disadvantes with staves/bows/claws/daggers.

ETC!


Attributes:
Atrributes should work differently for each class. Examples:
1)For example Barbarian should gain the most physical damage from STR.
2)DEX increases Assassin's chance to critical with melee weapons and chance to bleed with daggers, short swords, spears etc (melee piercing weapon types)
3)Paladin gains extra block rate and block chance with shield from DEX.
4)Below I write that MAGIC should increase minions stats but minions stats could also depend on the heroes stats. So its a choice.

STR:
Increases damage reduction VS Blunts and Staves (since such damage is considered crash type and muscle actually can reduce such damage taken)
Increases weapon physical damage (a decent amount)
Increases shield block success (meaning shield block can actually fail if your opponents STR is too high compare to yours)

DEX:
Increases physical chances to hit
Increases chance to evade (maybe spells also?)
Increases block rate and block chance (not only with shields)
Increases speed. Example: 1 Dex = 0,05 Speed (100 DEX = +5% speed). This depends on the mods max level, points gained per level etc
Increases attack speed Example: 1 Dex = 0,1 A.S (100 DEX = +10% A.S). Same with speed above.

MAGIC:
Increases spell damage and effects
Increases minions statistics
Reduces magic damage taken by % (NOT fire, cold, lightning or poison).
Increases mana
Increases casting speed (low)

VITALITY:
Increases stamina and life
Increases Fire resist (1VIT = 0.05)
Increases Cold resist (1VIT = 0.05)
Increases Lightning resist (1VIT = 0.02)
Increases Poison resist (1VIT = 0.7)
Increases Hit Recovery (1VIT = 0.1)

OFC these numbers are all dependable....!!

@Desocupado
Indeed shorter game. or at least shorter first 1-3 ACTs. Like in Anscestrall Recall mod. Or if not shorter not longer either ^_^. But again if the mod is fun it doesnt really matter how long it is. Its boring when its long and you do the same things in every area you go.

Removing the hireling would give a feeling of loneness/helpless.
Reducing light radius (always night time)
Reducing run speed (or removing it altogether)
AGREED!

I should add to this topic Inspiration word also since this is the actual purpose of this thread.


Edit: Something really important is the monsters AI and the skills they have. Im not talking about a direct damage skill types but more tactical ones.

1)Example:A monster type sees you running back (either to save your life or cast a spell or whatever) and uses blink stike on you, start range hit, cast spell or uses sprint. Again this should depend on the monster type. Not all monsters should have tactical attacks or the same attacks. For example it doesnt fit to a skeleton warrior to suddely cast fire balls on because you run back... that would be terrible. The skills have to make sense in some degree.

2)Example: You come across a party of (whatever) enemies with a boss and instead of actual running towards you they try to surround you.
And again, monsters AI should depend on their type! Maybe some monsters are too dumb to think of such a tactic and some others can. who knows!

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Re: Thoughts/Ideas for modders

Post by Xaphan » Mon May 12, 2014 2:48 pm

The problem is when you work on a mod, you have to work around the game, and not the opposite.

Many of your ideas are nice and would probably really change the way the game feels, but almost all your ideas aren't doable in the game as of now. You can't do everything unfortunately, you have to deal with how the game is made and stick to it.

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Re: Thoughts/Ideas for modders

Post by Desocupado » Tue May 13, 2014 1:58 am

With itemstatcost you could easily create most of these stats (critical hit per dex, attack speed per dex, cast rate per "energy") can stats directly influence attack speed or casting speed?
You can then proceed to give these to classes via passive skills/class specific items/charms (or code editing if you are fancy).

Editing skills.txt and missile.txt allow to create synergies with dummy stats (like caster mods and summon stats bonuses).

------
Itemization
Well, back to the topic - weapon approach. Animdata (the file that control animation rate/length) can be used to change speed around.
If one can put "classid" into a formula (//i need to check this one) - you could theoretically put an aura that gives different effects per class.

Bosses
Some people make uber bosses / side areas with such difficulty spikes.
The side dungeons are a good place to place such monsters.

----
Class specific stat bonuses
If we keep the original flavor we could have stuff like:

Paladin (tank)
Str= block chance / shield ac
Dex= block speed rate
Vit= hit recovery (perhaps % chance of interruptible)
Magic= curse resistance

Barbarian (unstoppable)
Str= damage reduction
Dex= attack speed
Vit= life regeneration
Magic= mana steal

Amazon (lightning fast)
Str = Open wounds chance
Dex = Attack speed
Vit = move speed
Magic = cast speed

Assassin (deadly ninja)
Str = Critical strike
Dex = Armor Class
Vit = Poison resistance
Magic = Mana per kill

Druid (jack of all trades)
Str/Dex = improve minion stats
Vit = elemental resistances
Magic = mana pool

Sorceress (offensive powerhouse)
Str = Mana pool
Dex = Cast speed
Vit = Damage goes to mana
Magic = Increased spell damage

Necromancer (vampire/trickster)
Str = Life steal/Life on kill
Dex = Increased poison damage
Vit = Improved minion resistances
Magic = Increased effects for spells

Then you could add class specific items with additional bonuses (or class specific bonuses with an aura as automagic)
Last edited by Desocupado on Tue May 13, 2014 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts/Ideas for modders

Post by Xaphan » Tue May 13, 2014 2:35 am

Desocupado" wrote:With itemstatcost you could easily create most of these stats (critical hit per dex, attack speed per dex, cast rate per "energy") can stats directly influence attack speed or casting speed?
You can then proceed to give these to classes via passive skills/class specific items/charms (or code editing if you are fancy).
Yes... but no. Passives and stat based on an other stat only update when you level up, put a point in the passive, change act, unequip and reequip the item, or enter the game. Client side mostly work as it should (descriptions on items) but serverside (the reality) it dosen't. (It's even mentionned in the topic you linked !)

However it work as synergies as I am doing that in my mod :) But you can't do everything with synergies ! And no, giving a synergy to a passive skill dosen't work :)

It work on an aura cause aura are refrenched every frame, but it's hard to implement it well because the player can't start with an aura on him, unless you put this aura on a charm that then need to stay in the inventory, or mod is broken ^^. I don't like these things :)

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Re: Thoughts/Ideas for modders

Post by Desocupado » Tue May 13, 2014 3:20 am

I was proposing something like a fixed bonus stat of "100" from a "(%)IAS/256 dexterity" stat.

For a cooler approach, we could create a class specific, one time only potion that grants those stat in appropriate save-able itemstat slot. // need to check if there are enough low index stats to spare... (edit: 21 saveable IDs from itemstat cost - up to 3 per class)

Any leads with the formulas that check class?

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