Strength and Dexterity meaning something

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zjat
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Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by zjat » Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:43 pm

A while back I had an idea for my mod that I never pursued, until now. I just coming back after a year without D2/modding in my life and well, I want to do more and finally finish what I started.

Strength is currently treated as a purely digital breakpoint. If you have 2 things that require 75 STR, at 74 you can't use either and at 75 you can use both. For some reason this has bugged me for a little while.

The idea is to create a form of linear strength bonus/detriment with each item requiring smaller amounts of strength but essentially adding together. So if you have the same 2 items requiring 75 str each, you would actually need 150 STR, but could in this example wear them before 150 STR with a detriment such as movement speed reduction. Similarly, Dexterity might associate with attack speed. Ms/As are merely examples though.

First of all, would it work in D2's engine to do something like this and secondly, what do you think of the idea?
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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by Doub » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:01 pm

about the idea.
You mean ANY item that requires STR or just weapons?

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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by zjat » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:10 pm

Doub" wrote:about the idea.
You mean ANY item that requires STR or just weapons?
Any item. It would likely require a pretty heavy change to gear costs across the board.

Edit: Basically, any gear that you equip would use up your stats. Like a person wearing 25 lbs of weighted clothing/armor adding a 15 lbs axe, it's going to overburden him/her if they aren't strong enough for it.

(I'm making an association of weight to "Strength" in this concept)
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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by Doub » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:10 pm

interesting.
Would STR still increase damage?

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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by zjat » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:14 am

Doub" wrote:interesting.
Would STR still increase damage?
Good question. I think I have that in the active version of the mod by the original defaults 1:1%

It's definitely a design question to ask though, if a heavier weapon has more damage, is that the route from which it is fair? idk, maybe.
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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by Doub » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:45 am

I thought of your idea but with a different point of view.

what im thinking.
Weight in general means that the heavier you become the less dodge chance, chance to hit, movement speed, casting speed you have (these are examples). In addition you gain physical damage reduction (not defense aka evasion).

Use the attributes such as STR, DEX etc as ways to enchant your performance and they will no longer be required in order to equip items.

So.
STR would give: damage, items' weight reduction (meaning stats such as movement speed etc would increase).
DEX would give: chance to hit, chance to dodge, chance to critical, chance to block.
etc

But well as i said. This is the same thing u thought of and i think yours is better cause its easyier and more simple to do.
And i think STR should still increase damage.

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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by Desocupado » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:54 pm

-Implementation-
Implementation-wise, aura on gear with some complex formulas can achieve the effects above.
Create a new stat "weight" and "max weight limit" (the later based on character's Str), use it on formulas.
Use a formula to calculate if the character is "overweight". If so, generate a malus based on the weapon type (like heavy AR drop for a bow or lower attack speed for a Maul)

But then it would ignore the stuff on the bag (well everyone has a bag of holding)

-Regular Str % damage boost-
Compared to the regular mechanics (the regular 1:1 str rate bonus) in you example, the Str 75 guys does 175% weapon damage and the Str 150 does 250%..
So that's roughly a ~43% more damage from 75 to 150 Str.

You could increase the str bonus, reduce base damage and str requirements if you want a similar effect without heavier mechanics alteration.
Then again the effect is the same, no one would equip weapon X without enough Str.

-Balance-
It's much easier to balance around flat numbers like a dmg%. So unless you change every monster's AS, Dmg and other attributes it would be a pain to balance all around to achieve a meaningful effect.
Would any player ever wield a weapon with the penalty?

In the end, the AR from dex and the damage boost from Str should be enough (mechanically) if their source is mostly player stats instead of gear (hint).

If weight considers both armor and weapon, mages wouldn't lose anything to wield armor, while melee characters wold have to balance defense and offense use of "weight".
Do they need this nerf?

-On armor-
Well, the aura for move speed based on Str could be nice. But then again the Str requirement is already (mostly) an adequate barrier for non str users and heavier plates. In fact it works better as otherwise, because weapon users would split their weight allowence between armor and weapons.

-Dexterity-
Just make Dexterity bonus to AR more meaningful than the rest of sources, i.e. remove most FLAT bonuses for AR from gear, change the formula for AR per dex/level and, probably, reduce monster's AC all around.

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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by zjat » Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:41 am

-Implementation-
aura on gear with some complex formulas can achieve the effects above.
That's an interesting way to do things, never gone that route before (though I've seen stuff like that before here).
if their source is mostly player stats instead of gear
I agree that stats should be limited on gear
mages wouldn't lose anything to wield armor
the concept is meant to be added to my existing mod, so unstated context here is that intelligence also benefits elemental damages
(intelligence synergy on all elemental skills)

a clarifying comment - the original concept should have been phrased as an analog vs digital breakpoint. The goal is to make it so there isn't as much of a min max equation for the player to reach (or to screw themselves over from). I've been actually thinking about trying out negative stats on gear with a passive skill that controls the algorithm of benefit/loss. A new thought as well is the concept of STR being used purely for defensive aspect (body strength to wear gear) and DEX being used for offensive aspect (arm/hand strength/agility to wield weapons). This could isolate some balance of various character builds too (i think/hope)
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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by Desocupado » Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:48 pm

So str becomes the new vit. i.e. someone looking for maximun effectiveness should put any spare point on it, after having enough offensive prowess.

No matter what you the stat point system can be min_maxed. On the other hand min maxing requires a deep knowledge players won't probably have unless the mod becomes very popular.

I think I has a few sketches on possible ways to make Base stats more interesting in D2, tough that not mean that the level up and gain stat system wold still be functional.

----

Regardless of that, to make stats interesting and meaningful , as mentioned on topic title, you should reflect on how many stat points players:
1 Start with (is it too much or too few? Does it mean certain character can't do some stuff?)
2 earn with each level (is 5 per level and 500 until level 99 a lot?)
3 get from others sources (same as above)


After that you could ponder
1 Will a bad spread make the game unplayable?
2 Can players fix their mistakes?
3 Is the game too easy or hard with a given spread?

In my opinion either the stats determine character power or they are mostly irrelevant.
Personally I don't find having both skill and stat points per level a good thing in D2 (or skill levels for that matter).

-------
If you want to make caster avoid heavy armor without using stat requirements you could
1 make heavy armor mods based on str or dex
2 give lighter armor mods relevant to spell casting/ mana related stuff is good if you balance mana costs around it
3 make stats in a way casters never will reach a good point to wear armor (they start with low Str and never should invest on it)

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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by Trevor » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:57 pm

zjat" wrote:A while back I had an idea for my mod that I never pursued, until now. I just coming back after a year without D2/modding in my life and well, I want to do more and finally finish what I started.

Strength is currently treated as a purely digital breakpoint. If you have 2 things that require 75 STR, at 74 you can't use either and at 75 you can use both. For some reason this has bugged me for a little while.

The idea is to create a form of linear strength bonus/detriment with each item requiring smaller amounts of strength but essentially adding together. So if you have the same 2 items requiring 75 str each, you would actually need 150 STR, but could in this example wear them before 150 STR with a detriment such as movement speed reduction. Similarly, Dexterity might associate with attack speed. Ms/As are merely examples though.

First of all, would it work in D2's engine to do something like this and secondly, what do you think of the idea?
I have always liked your idea. I've never given it much effort to implement because the current system doesn't really annoy me that much though. What annoyed me was even a caster could wear heavy melee armors while dishing out death from a safe distance. This is why I got rid of dex as a gear requirement. I removed dexterity as a gear requirement too and tied requirements to strength and a new stat 'encumbrance'. It is now impossible for a caster to wear melee armor... as it should be in my opinion.

As for making stats specifically linked to something, I went with dexterity for physical damage/speeds, strength for all defensive mods, energy for mana regeneration, not max mana. Only a handful of gear can increase max mana. Basically a caster has to manage their mana. They have skills that are essentially free and others that are very expensive. Vitality for passive hp regen, not max HP. Skill investment controls max hp.

Just some rambling concepts I've implemented.
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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by zjat » Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:53 pm

This thread is really making me rethink how my mod is currently set up, mostly because many of my ideas are half done from last year. I had the 'brilliant' idea of making all weapons physical + elemental type, then the 'brilliant' idea of doing somewhat the same to armors. So while this thread makes so much sense (many good ideas) in the context of d2, I'm realizing it may not make too much sense in my mod. :(

Trevor" wrote: As for making stats specifically linked to something, I went with dexterity for physical damage/speeds, strength for all defensive mods, energy for mana regeneration, not max mana. Only a handful of gear can increase max mana. Basically a caster has to manage their mana. They have skills that are essentially free and others that are very expensive. Vitality for passive hp regen, not max HP. Skill investment controls max hp.

Just some rambling concepts I've implemented.
As for this, there are 5 different 'classes' in my mod in which mana = something else (kind of). For the Barb it's a fury/stamina pool, with negative mana regen and flat mana on being hit as well as on kill, his pool is by default 100 (100%). The sorceress has a minimized pool with high mana regen (something like -30% max and +100% or more regen), the druid uses health (bloodmana), and the necro uses 'darkness' with high max mana and 0 regen. With this setup, only the barb (currently) cannot increase his max mana (without specific items or skills), while a strong mage is going to have excessive mana costs (with nothing to exceed 100). In regards to stats, a high mana user of any kind will be sacrificing much needed health or strength for max mana... and in regards to Armor and Attack Rating, I'd rather not have them at all, instead focusing on damage vs mitigation. Then on top of that all... my characters don't have skills other than just placeholders (4 skills per hero) for testing the classes, because the goal of the mod (and this part is 95% done) is to have skills read synergies from false stats (skills) like Sorcery and Command... by the time those became functional, with the myriad of other design changes, Dex and Str became worthless more so that normal d2...

(tl;dr my head hurts trying to figure out my next step in design)

:(
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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by Desocupado » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:01 pm

zjat" wrote:This thread is really making me rethink how my mod is currently set up, mostly because many of my ideas are half done from last year. I had the 'brilliant' idea of making all weapons physical + elemental type, then the 'brilliant' idea of doing somewhat the same to armors. So while this thread makes so much sense (many good ideas) in the context of d2, I'm realizing it may not make too much sense in my mod. :(



As for this, there are 5 different 'classes' in my mod in which mana = something else (kind of). For the Barb it's a fury/stamina pool, with negative mana regen and flat mana on being hit as well as on kill, his pool is by default 100 (100%). The sorceress has a minimized pool with high mana regen (something like -30% max and +100% or more regen), the druid uses health (bloodmana), and the necro uses 'darkness' with high max mana and 0 regen. With this setup, only the barb (currently) cannot increase his max mana (without specific items or skills), while a strong mage is going to have excessive mana costs (with nothing to exceed 100). In regards to stats, a high mana user of any kind will be sacrificing much needed health or strength for max mana... and in regards to Armor and Attack Rating, I'd rather not have them at all, instead focusing on damage vs mitigation. Then on top of that all... my characters don't have skills other than just placeholders (4 skills per hero) for testing the classes, because the goal of the mod (and this part is 95% done) is to have skills read synergies from false stats (skills) like Sorcery and Command... by the time those became functional, with the myriad of other design changes, Dex and Str became worthless more so that normal d2...

(tl;dr my head hurts trying to figure out my next step in design)

:(
So mana stats/mods are out.

What does base stats currently do in your mod?
zjat" wrote:intelligence synergy on all elemental skills)
*You could just remove all stats, and use something else for requirements (even that weight concept) - having each character starting with a specific "Max weight".


If stats exist just to be able to create builds - you could use a "ultimate passive skill" instead. Let's say sorcerers may learn one of the following passives at level 15:
1 - Spell slinger Passive (faster cast rate and mana) - equivalent to a sorcerer that invest in mana
2 - Patient Caster (lousy name, but I wanted to suggest something like +spell dmg% based on current mana % - so you should cast less often) - equivalent to investment in damage synergy
3 - Arcane Fighting Style (AR% and damage goes to mana) - a battle sorcerer kit

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Re: Strength and Dexterity meaning something

Post by zjat » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:02 pm

Desocupado" wrote:
If stats exist just to be able to create builds - you could use a "ultimate passive skill" instead. Let's say sorcerers may learn one of the following passives at level 15:
1 - Spell slinger Passive (faster cast rate and mana) - equivalent to a sorcerer that invest in mana
2 - Patient Caster (lousy name, but I wanted to suggest something like +spell dmg% based on current mana % - so you should cast less often) - equivalent to investment in damage synergy
3 - Arcane Fighting Style (AR% and damage goes to mana) - a battle sorcerer kit
I am 50% sure I'm going to do something like this now as some kind of an optional "mastery" within each character's 'resource.'
...While still figuring out the entirety of the design of stats, making them useful, and simultaneously meshing that logic and usefulness in what I've already created. It's a really good start. This thread has really shown me my conceptual mistakes as I'm basing much of my design from games I enjoy that are not related to D2 and therefore do not have STR or DEX, etc. (spiral knights, warframe, rachet and clank).

As an end to the thread, and a partial thank you to all, here's where I do plan to go in the next 100 hours of my mod (if you're interested): http://pastebin.com/nYMbxSGZ
One day I'll put my humpty dumpty back together again...

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