FINAL SKILL SYSTEM - Spell Book & Training Sessions

[Joel]

Well, I've got a few spare ideas for the mod that I don't still know if I'll put them on or not. So i'll seek help and feedback here :

1) New Skill Systems :

Well, this is the trickiest one. So take a deep breath and go !

The principes of the system is to prevent the infamous 1/20 build and enforce player to stick to a sub-cabal build way. It's loosely based on a mix between D1 book system and D2 skill trees system.

At each level up, players gains a fixed amount of skill points based on their prime attributes (that's not new). Players could also gains skill points by completing quests or using elixir like items ([spoiler]Nectar of Liodaros[/spoiler]). These skill points will be further called Proficiency Points. All skill have no pre-req but still have stat and lvl req.

Now, you got a level nd gain some PP. You open your skill tree and try to add a point to your newly gained skills. YOU CAN'T !! Arg !!

PP can't be assigned directly to skills. You need to discover and use a
Book of Skill to get some points in a skills. basically if you want to raise your 'Fireball' skills, you have to get some free PP and at least a
'Book of Fireball'. When used, the book disappear, consume some PP and raise your slvl by 1.

That's the basic ideas. Now, the fine tuning.

Book of Skills comes in two flavor.
The easiest to get : the 'Learning Book' that is used to bring a skill from slvl 0 to slvl 1. They are so usefull once They drop fairly nicely and can be bought at some vendor.

The hardest one : the 'Upgrade book' that raise a skill from slvl X to slvl X+Y. They can be dropped but not bought.

When using a Learning Book, it always consume a PP whatever the skill ou learn. When using a upgrade Book, the amount of PP that get used is based loosely on the Skill Level, the skill current slvl, the amount of slvl the book grant (Y). Some Upgrade book cost no PP for the very first slvl they gain. That's true fro ex for the low level skills.
Some Examples :

Pyroclasm is a lvl 1 Shalafi spell
Spells Slvl Bonus Cost in PP
Pyroclasm 1-5 +1 0
Pyroclasm 6-10 +1 0
Pyroclasm 11-15 +1 1
Pyroclasm 16-20 +1 1
Pyroclasm 1-5 +2 0
Pyroclasm 6-10 +2 1
Pyroclasm 11-15 +2 1
Pyroclasm 16-20 +2 2
Pyroclasm 1-5 +3 1
Pyroclasm 6-10 +3 1
Pyroclasm 11-15 +3 2
Pyroclasm 16-20 +3 3
etc ...

Way of the Winds is a lvl 30 hunter Spell
Spells Slvl Bonus Cost in PP
WotW 1-5 +1 2
WotW 6-10 +1 3
WotW 11-15 +1 3
WotW 16-20 +1 4
WotW 1-5 +2 3
WotW 6-10 +2 3
WotW 11-15 +2 4
WotW 16-20 +2 4
WotW 1-5 +3 3
WotW 6-10 +3 4
WotW 11-15 +3 4
WotW 16-20 +3 5

Slvl bonus from book goes from 1 to 3.
Another point is the fact that this system put a high trade value
on good skill good upgrade book or rare skill learning book
(Book of Apocalypse anyone ?) It also decuplates the power of simple mod like +1 to a skill, +1 to a tab or the mighty +1 to all skill ...

Then further on with books, they can be crafted from blank book

Blank Book + (magical) Ink + Some focus => Book of <?> Learning
upgrade book can't be crafted from scratch but can be combined :

Some focus + 2x Upgrade book for Fireball (+1) => 1 Upgrade book for fireball (+2)

Note also that PP can be used with books to gain other mundane benefit :

Book of Health
5 PP --> +1 VIT
Manual of Legerdemain
3 PP --> +20% MF (permanent)

etc ...

Another big bonus, with this system i can control the fact that player put skill ONLY in the skill of a given skill tree. Hence you've put a Berserker skill at slvl 1 for example, you can't learn magekiller skill etc ...

Now, maybe some more ideas are needed to finely craft this one.

Comments and ideas are welcome.

[Xcolibri]

This system needs getting used to it, but I think, I like it.

What I like alot is the pleasure when you find such a book. Make sure that 'book runs' are not abused.
Also, your character will develop more interesting. By now, you know before your next level-up, where to put in your new points. With books, this will be more difficult.
Third, I like, that you can gain free skills at the first level. So you can try it out, without wasting a point.

I haven't yet understood why this system helps sticking to a subclass. You can still divide your points into all three classes, can't you?
(I mean theoretically, I don't intend to do so)

Also I noticed, that high levels are much more expensive. Are they worth it, providing high bonuses? If yes, +skill items will be even more valuable and maybe overpowered. If no, people won't like to specialize and the variety in a subclass itself will shrink.

Lastly:Can you buy focuses?

[Joel]

This system needs getting used to it, but I think, I like it.

yes that's true , a bit scary at first sight.

What I like alot is the pleasure when you find such a book. Make sure that 'book runs' are not abused.

Yep, book run, well, matter of balance between drop of book and book quality.

Also, your character will develop more interesting. By now, you know before your next level-up, where to put in your new points. With books, this will be more difficult.

Exactly.

Third, I like, that you can gain free skills at the first level. So you can try it out, without wasting a point.

I was thinking of some stuff to un-learn skill. Removing slvl from a skimm to gain PP.

I haven't yet understood why this system helps sticking to a subclass. You can still divide your points into all three classes, can't you?
(I mean theoretically, I don't intend to do so)

Basically, when your r-click the book I make a check on all your skill to see if you're not trying to put a point into another subcabal skill.
Code editing details.

Also I noticed, that high levels are much more expensive. Are they worth it, providing high bonuses? If yes, +skill items will be even more valuable and maybe overpowered. If no, people won't like to specialize and the variety in a subclass itself will shrink.

Hmmm I don't follow you her
high level what ?

Lastly:Can you buy focuses ?

Some.
Focus is the generic term I use for mundane reagent that goes in avery recipes or so ... Basically there is 5 focus :

Scroll of Permanency : used when crafting item
Athanor : use when combinig reagents into another one
Liquor of Deliquescence : used to remove stats from items
Various Magic Ink : used for crafting Book of skill
Mana Crystal : the mana pot if you like. Easy to get, used to do some low lvl and easy recipes.

[Brother Laz]

There you go and smash me again while I'm struggling with the damned hardcoded skill bonus limit on charms.

Anyway, as I already told you, great idea.

Also, make the un-learn skill stuff not too cheap/easy - otherwise people may put points into Some Great Protection Skill, cast it, have it last for 10 minutes, and after casting it un-learn it and put their points into something else or even an entirely different tree.

[Joel]

I was thinking to have them as quest reward, so a limited amount of them will be available (around 4 or 5 ) ... well "Water of Styyx" is not known to be so that common.

[Xcolibri]

Also I noticed, that high levels are much more expensive. Are they worth it, providing high bonuses? If yes, +skill items will be even more valuable and maybe overpowered. If no, people won't like to specialize and the variety in a subclass itself will shrink.

Hmmm I don't follow you here
high level what ?

High levels of skills. If the skills are on level 20 or so, they need more PP to increase again. So it will be more difficult to get them to high-end levels, while bonuses on items will provide the extra boost easily here.

[Joel]

Ah Ok !!
Well i'm on my way to completely remove +skill items of any sorts.
Except for stilysh uniqeu or set items.

It's clear than even a +1 to all skill is equivalen tof 1000 hours of book run so ...

Just another topic on this one : Book drops
should i scale them to level only and forget the act-dependent TC setup (like in D1 where a bat can drop a Book of CL) or not ?

[Brother Laz]

Just another topic on this one : Book drops
should i scale them to level only and forget the act-dependent TC setup (like in D1 where a bat can drop a Book of CL) or not ?

Obviously! People use 3 skills max, and you'd end up with item runs.

[Joel]

So I'll have to make a less drastic act dependent drop system .
maybe just preventing silly drop (heavy scale mail dropped from swarm anyone), keep a theme for the drop (leather stuff in act 1, odsidian made geas in Act 9 etc ...) but allow more flexibility.

Even if the vision of a Xvart dropping a Book of Pyroclasm sound sweirds

Hmmm another thing, shouuld I differentiate the learning and upgrading book somehow ? text description and/or color stuff ??

[Brother Laz]

maybe just preventing silly drop (heavy scale mail dropped from swarm anyone)

Make them no-drop like the bats in D1. If you make your setup more price-dependent, like in D1 Normal, they'd pose an extra challenge (if you make them always spawn, or people will restart the game - morals have changed since D1...)

Hmmm another thing, shouuld I differentiate the learning and upgrading book somehow ? text description and/or color stuff ??

Just leave them the same, so that people waste money and books. j/k

[Joel]

Make them no-drop like the bats in D1. If you make your setup more price-dependent, like in D1 Normal, they'd pose an extra challenge (if you make them always spawn, or people will restart the game - morals have changed since D1...)

Ok that's what I tought.

Just leave them the same, so that people waste money and books. j/k

Rohh :evil: maybe just a slight change in the description

Learnign Books : Activate xxx skill
Upgade Books : +1 to xxx skill

[Chiffa]

If you are going to make a strong border between subcabals, can you add to each of them some skills other have, for instance, I use always Cobra Strike, Phoenix Strike and Tiger Claw - that's two different subclasses.... I'd like not to lose this...

[Joel]

Well .... you can forget this, NO classic D2 LoD skill will be in so ... you'll have to discover new skills and new builds.

[Chiffa]

Yes, sir!!!

[Joel]

Well, Ive played a bit with the new skills.txt and I came up with a fully softcoded spellbook system.

You start the game with a class specific spell focus (spellbook for shalafi, gorgon's head for chaos etc ...) and three subcabal reagent. Cube the focus and ONE of the reagent to get a subcabal specific spell holder. This spell holder will be used to LEARN new skills over the game.

To learn a skills you have to find the approriate skill "books" and cube ti with the spell holder. Once you've done that, the spell you cube the book for get a PROFIENCY POINT. Once you get at least one PP in a skill of yours you can TRAIN it.

To train a skill, you have to invest TRAINING POINTS (aka skill point) into the skills to pump up its efficiency.

Now, what happens ?

* Skill Profiency control the mana cost and sinergy effect of a spell.
The better Profiency, the les smana it costs and the more sinergy you get.

* Skill Level control the actual effects of the skill. The more it is, the better damage/ac% etc ... you get from the skill.

Moreover, you can't train a skill to slvl X if you don't have at least X Profiency level for this skills. That's means for example than to raise a skill to slvl 5, you'll need 5 PP for this skills. for getting over slvl 6, you'll need to find a new book, cube it and access Profiency 6.

The number of Training point needed to increase a skill level is dependant of the skill level, profiency level and skill type.

A level 1 skill like Elemental Dart needs 1 TP per slvl at Profiency 1->20
A level 10 skill like V.Coil needs 1 TP per slvl at Profiency 1->10 and 2 at Prof. 11->20.
A levle 30 skill like Planar Rift needs 1 TP per slvl per Profiency (so it's 1TP,2TP,3TP,4TP,5TP,,,20TP).

etc ...

Now, what's the impact of these :

* Obviously, the build is a bit harder to come by; You need to find the good book at the good moment to get the skill and stock pile TP over.
* Item with +x to skills are interesting but they lack the + to skill Profiency mod that will be available. If you get + to skills, the effect is boosted but the cost/siinergy is not. if you get + to Skill profiency, the mana/sinergy is affecte dnot the effect. This two kind of mods can spawn on different itemtypes and so allow more flexibility on skill bonus from items.
* TP potion drops all the way. So you have a infinite pool of Tp if you manage to find them. This means that even at lvl 100, you can continue to explore the game to find the required item to craft TP elixir or skill book to raise a non maxed skill.
* items with +oskill are not affected by profiency and there is no +oprof ( means + to a non class skill profiency)

examples of items with + to prof.

Lock pick :
+ 3 to Steal Profiency

Girdle of Mahantor
unique Linked Girdle
+5 mana
+10% dmg goes to mana
+5 to Essence Transfer Profiency
...

Obviously, the TP needed to raise a skill is absed on Profiency BASE level No Skill pumping while wearing these items.

Hoping it's understandabel I await comments.

[Brother Laz]

Understandable :headache: but don't discourage getting level 30 skills too much because otherwise lower level skills would be picked all the way. No one wants to waste 15 points to raise a level 30 skill by one level, but rather put those points into a level 1 or 6 skill to nearly max it. I'd rather have level 20 charged bolt than level 2 frozen orb. With immunities it gets even more unbalanced, as you need TWO skills, which is WAY easier to do if you go for low level skills.

I've seen this nerfing of higher level skills happen in balance mods [SL], with harsh timers on higher skills, and the result was that one would simply ignore them and go for lower level skills [I've known the raven/spiritwolf build to be very uber].

Also, there are powerful low level skills [tiger strike, CE, CB and masteries in CLoD] and those would be very large point magnets, as they are good but don't consume all your points in one click.

[Joel]

I think skill cost will be capped at 5. The possibility to find TP elixir and such will allow an easy pumping of high lvl skills. THe point I have to care is the book drop rate :-/

[Brother Laz]

Which is a 'female dog'.
Hmm, how about making all skills readily available at level 1, but the skill points needed to increase higher level skills are very high. Then increase the skill point drop rate based on the act and difficulty the char is in.

That way, people won't even think of saving up the precious skill points they get in the beginning to eventually put into a high level skill [they'd be skill-less for the first two acts while saving up points], but at higher levels when points are more plentiful, it becomes worth it to save up a bunch of them and put them into a high level skill.

It'd be like the 'money' factor in a proper j/k book system, where level 2 characters see Books of Mana Shield at Adria's but don't have nearly enough dineros to actually buy it without being item-less for six dlvls while saving up money.

......

In D1 there also used to be a 'mana cost' factor in case people would twink CL books down to their level 1 character, but in D2 this doesn't work well, due to the mana regeneration people would stubbornly stand around for minutes instead of spending all their money on mana and reverting back to firebolt like they're supposed to. So you might need another way to prevent people from twinking down books and skill points to newbie characters and r0x0rz the den of evil with level 20 Super Destructocalypse.

[Joel]

Hmm, how about making all skills readily available at level 1, but the skill points needed to increase higher level skills are very high. Then increase the skill point drop rate based on the act and difficulty the char is in.

That way, people won't even think of saving up the precious skill points they get in the beginning to eventually put into a high level skill [they'd be skill-less for the first two acts while saving up points], but at higher levels when points are more plentiful, it becomes worth it to save up a bunch of them and put them into a high level skill.

It'd be like the 'money' factor in a proper j/k book system, where level 2 characters see Books of Mana Shield at Adria's but don't have nearly enough dineros to actually buy it without being item-less for six dlvls while saving up money.

Hmmm, so .... powerful skill is available at lvl 1 but need 5 TP to be pumped ? And TP elixir should drop low in a1, more in a2 and so on ???

In D1 there also used to be a 'mana cost' factor in case people would twink CL books down to their level 1 character, but in D2 this doesn't work well, due to the mana regeneration people would stubbornly stand around for minutes instead of spending all their money on mana and reverting back to firebolt like they're supposed to. So you might need another way to prevent people from twinking down books and skill points to newbie characters and r0x0rz the den of evil with level 20 Super Destructocalypse.

I can set a level requirement on the Profiency recipes ?
So lvl 1 char can't cube lvl 30 skill book ??

[Brother Laz]

Hmmm, so .... powerful skill is available at lvl 1 but need 5 TP to be pumped ? And TP elixir should drop low in a1, more in a2 and so on ???

Only 5 TP? I'd suggest more like 20-30.

I can set a level requirement on the Profiency recipes ?
So lvl 1 char can't cube lvl 30 skill book ??

...but a level 60 char can do all the cubing and then twink down the resulting item. And putting level reqs on the item may be a bad idea, as people who rush ahead, get very lucky and get a powerful spell early in their career, and eagerly cube it, may raise the level req of the item above their own level and be left with no skills and an unusable item.

[Joel]

Only 5 TP? I'd suggest more like 20-30.

wow you strike hard ! I may haev to rethink the drop rate or training pots.
May the Profiency decrease this so ??

but a level 60 char can do all the cubing and then twink down the resulting item. And putting level reqs on the item may be a bad idea, as people who rush ahead, get very lucky and get a powerful spell early in their career, and eagerly cube it, may raise the level req of the item above their own level and be left with no skills and an unusable item.

True :/ but if ppl rush that will be their OWN FAULT