Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

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Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Zhadoom » Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:40 pm

Hi there,

i was wondering why my Overlord skellies get lost while i run... in 1.09 this wasn't the case. And as i heared Iron Golem now gets lost too...

is there any way to make them always teleport to the player if they fall too much behind? Cause i wanna use an Iron Golem with an Aura item, to support my skellies, so loosing him would be a great loss.

I thought about changes in pettype.txt and monsterai.txt and the like, but i am not sure...


thx in advance,

Hakan
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Post by SilverShadowHell » Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:40 pm

Well
Any vahnge in monsterai.txt will be useles as it is a reference txt... what you have to do is change the necropet ai to the druid wolf AI (not in mind right now but look fore it at the fenris line) and add to them the teleport skill that they have... that is all
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Post by onyx » Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:48 pm

[quote=SilverShadowHell";p="243406"]Well
Any vahnge in monsterai.txt will be useles as it is a reference txt... [/quote]

Not true. It was proven that monai.txt influences the game when you change it's values. It's uncertain what exactly it does, though.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Nefarius » Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:53 pm

It is known what it does the game uses it to link the internal AI table to the "textual ID pointers" you use in monstats.

Thus: only the first column is NOT reference.

If for example you change the entry called Fallen in MonAI.txt to "Something other then Fallen", all monsters that in MonStats.txt have Fallen under their AI column will either crash or just do nothing. But by itself - other then being an INDEX it does nothing.
Last edited by Nefarius on Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Zhadoom » Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:05 pm

So does this mean SilverShadowHells idea would work?

And would this be possible without changing the other Skelleton and Golem behvior?
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Nefarius » Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:59 pm

In 1.09 there is no way to alter this effect because summon AIs and all their special effects are defined by the skill functions.
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Post by SilverShadowHell » Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:57 am

Ok you said that this wasn't the case in 1.09 so I presumed (this is more Nefariusus style) that you are working in either 1.10 or 1.11 and in those versions this should work nicely, just try it out, maibe you will discover something more on the way there.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Zhadoom » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:11 am

Well, right i work in 1.10 (but thats only cause PlugY wasn't working with 1.11b and i didn't know that it would work with 1.11, so i restored my 1.10 backup)

@SilverShadowHell
The "Necropet" line in pettype.txt has no entry (assuming you wanna make the ai change there). Should i just insert the Values from druid wolfes? Or do i have to change something elsewhere?

Pls a little more detail... have no idea how to make skeletons use another ai. And no idea how to make them use the "teleport" skill either.

Another point that bothers me: wouldn't your suggestion change skeleton behavior in many other ways too?

Thx in advance




@all
This maybe interessting to anyone who needs to understand the disapearing from summons (especially skeletons):
After a whole lot of testing around i figured out that skeletons actually do teleport to you if they get out of range(this wasn't that hard). But there are some cases when they dont warp back to you.

1. I figured out how exactly they disapaer: If they get out of ther rendered area (u can recognize that when their x-icons arent visible anymore on the minimap - thx to kingpin) for exactly 5 seconds, they are gone! Maybe this interrest Kingpin too.

2. Changing their walk/run speed has great influence on how frequently they disapaer, but not only because they are able to catch up to you. If u manage to get them stuck anywhere and therefore unable to follow you, then the skeletons with faster run/walk will warp almost always back to you (mostly imidiatly after beeing outside of the rendered area). So warping itself is activated and works.

3. In some cases however, when they get out of the rendered area, they do not warp to you. There must be someting that prevents them from warping (at least for 5 seconds). This occures more often when the skeletons have verry low run/walk speed... but they still do warp to you sometimes.


So since walk/run speed has an influence on warping could it be possible that their current action (like "go to destination" or "attack enemy") must be finished to make them able to warp?

I hope this info gives someone a clue how this whole thing works... cause loosing a skeleton isn't that worse (but its still bothering me) but i don't like clay golem or the bloody one... my preference would be an iron golem made of an item that gives him holy freeze or another aura that supports my skelies (assuming i will be able to get that nasty runes together sometime :D) and loosing him would be a pain in the a... :(

Greetings

Hakan
Last edited by Zhadoom on Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Zhadoom » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:56 am

Well after weekend (and some excessive testing) i figured out, that the "warp" field actually does set the ability of minions to warp or not. But setting this field to "1" just "allows" the AI to warp... but warping itself has to depend on the AI itself.

For example:

I tried every different summon AI (except assas shadow warrior/master). And they all dissapear sometimes...

Well what means sometimes? For example i set my char walk/run speed to (insanely) high values (50/50). Then i summoned skeletons/druid wolves/valkyries and so on. Then i ran through the entire act 1, from town to andariel (that was quite a work ;)). Since i am way faster than my minions they have to warp to my location almost all the time.
When doing this with 10 skeletons, there were only 2 left when i arrived at andariel. So this means this 2 skeletons did warp to me many times without disapearing. (almost the same result with wolves/valyries and so on)

Other AIs of non summon monsters NEVER!! warp to you.
So this hardens my theorie, that a "1" in warp field determines wether the AI is allowed to warp... warping itself is executed by the AI i think.
I also thinks that disapearing is also executed by the AI (or at least the AI is able to supress disapearing).
PS: That should also explain the not-warping-behavior of revives.


The only exception i found, is when i used HirelingAI for summons... only this one prevented all summons from disapearing. But there was a graphic bug though. They were invisible 50% of the time (i guess thats because the hirelings has more views than skeletons...). They also didn't attack anymore.

So now i would like to use HirelingAI for all summonables... can anyone pls help me (or give me some advise) with fixing the grafik and "no attack" bug? May there be any problem when doing this?

If any other idea should come up, how to supress summon disapearing, i would be verry glad.

Hakan
Last edited by Zhadoom on Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Doombreed-x » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:24 am

Ever think that maybe the summons will warp to you if their ai isn't tied up in another action, like fightning a monster? Hireling ai is probably coded to warp with or without attention just so players aren't constanly peeved. Try clearing the blood moore, then run back and forth across is a number of times and see how many you lose.

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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Nefarius » Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:17 am

Not only AI-events, summons will not warp if they are GH-locked (thats why golems lack a GH mode I guess).
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Zhadoom » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:33 am

@Nefarius
Call me stupid if its too obvious, but what means GH (-locked/-mode)?
By the way, u seem pretty sure about AI locks concerning warping... did u ever found out something the like?

@all
Do you have any sugestions on how to use hirelingAI for summons (to make them not disapear anymore)? Or any other suggestions?

Thx to all
Last edited by Zhadoom on Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by SilverShadowHell » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:44 am

[quote=Zhadoom";p="243733"]@all
Do you have any sugestions on how to use hirelingAI for summons (to make them not disapear anymore)? Or any other suggestions?[/quote]

Yes... give the summons more animations (just like the hireling has)

This is why they disapear in the first place, because they do not have a certain animation the hireling tries to use

EDIT: P.S.

@Zhadoom: sorry I didn't reply in a while but I was in a coma for 2 days (struck by car)

@older members: yeah yeah, first suicide now this... what's next right???
Last edited by SilverShadowHell on Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Nefarius » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:54 am

GH = Get Hit, or in "player terms" hit recovery.

The warping by itself is an AI event, thus it will only be able to warp when it does nothing else (I.E. when it does not attack an enemy).

GH on the other hand prevents the unit (including the player), from doing anything, until the animation finishes playing, now when the summon is being hit by enemies in a chain, it will never finish "recovering", and thus stay there forever (until it dies or gets unloaded == vanish).

I believe that the NeverCount setting in monstats has something to do with unloading/reloading units. It is usually set to 1 only for summons and some map specific units. It could be that the game uses this column to control whenever it should be "unloaded" or "saved". (I.E. so that, when a map part unloads, the fallen you saw there before remains exactly in that spot, and doesn't vanish)






[assumption]
Hirelings don't vanish because they are saved as part of the save file, so I guess if they do get unloaded, the game will reload them again. Now, iron golem is also saved, but this is a Blizzard game.
[/assumption]
Last edited by Nefarius on Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Zhadoom » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:02 am

what the ****?

u were in a coma? I hope you feel better now.
Man there is no reason to excuse delayed reply or no reply either!

Nice of you, to remember though.


As for the animation... where do i give them more animations? In monstats2.txt?

And they are not atacking too... is this also related to missing animations?

Thx for your help.

EDIT
@Nefarius
Well concerning your assumption... do you wanna say that i should save the summons that i don't want to disapear? (by the way, iron golem gets saved, but i think iron golem does disapear during game play occasionally, and then the iron golem is gone forever :( - but i have to test that to be totally sure)
Even Hireables get "lost" sometimes, but they don't disapear. When they get lost (they aren't around you anymore) u are not able to change their equipment. But after using a town portal or teleport skill they are back again, unlike other summons, who disapear after beeing over 5 sekonds "lost".

EDIT2
@Doombred
Well even if there aren't any monsters around, they desapear sometimes. (I might be wron, but it seems to me, that the more minions u have the faster u loose some. And that's seems to me to be not linear. For example, i tested a druid with 30 Dire Wilves in an area without enemies. The first ones disapear pretty fast, but i never got all of them disapear - no matter how long i kept running.)
Last edited by Zhadoom on Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Nefarius » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:16 am

Read my assumption again. I referred to the Iron Golem issue in there, they probably considered it irrelevant or forgot about it (it's a necro skill after all...)

PS: There is no* way you can make all summons saved, you would need to create your own save file format for this and modify all the summong-skill functions.

*Of course, this is possible with enough CE, but just to make skeletons stop vanishing... A little bit too much effort. Blizzard didn't manage to fix this issue , and they tried it since the early days of classic D2.




Overall, it's very easy to explain why they vanish - they get unloaded from memory, and unlike normal monsters, the game doesn't store their X/Y coordinates and stats. (NeverCount could be related to this part, but it could just as well be related to anything else).
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Zhadoom » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:26 am

Sorry, but i think i still don't understand everything...

1. Is it a known and existing bug, that Iron Golem does disapear? (just that i don't test something that is already known)

2. Well how about using hirelingAI like described above? They seem to never disapear. It just has missing animations and the summons won't attack with hirelingAI. Couldn't i use this for iron golem too? (assuming i can manage the graphic/attck problem)

EDIT
will try the NeverCount idea tonight... thx

EDIT2
Hey got a great idea:
When u did read all above u should know, that i found that 5 sekond delay bevore any summon disapear... Wouldn't it be pretty easy to change that delay to... lets say 600(or 6000 :D) sekonds? In this time u just have to use a TP/WP or just teleport and u can save yor minions. (This would still make them fall back sometimes, but u wouldn't loose any Summon/Iron Golem forever)
Last edited by Zhadoom on Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by SilverShadowHell » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:42 am

All animations are in data\global\monsters\xx\ where xx is code of the token (look in code collumn in monstats.txt to see what token the monster uses)

And for how-to-do look in the multimedia forum or do a search in it for what animations the hireling has and then copy them from the data\global\monsters\xx\ of youre summon and rename them to what they should be look at the differences from one to the other animation both summon and hireling and you will understand what to change
Then add youre new cof files to the animdata.d2 entries... you can search (Nefarius realy recomends searching) the multimedia forum for a tutorial on this, it is quite easy after doing it once or twice

About the come, I just have a head ake at this moment (no school for a week :victory: )
Nefarius";p="243756" wrote:Overall, it's very easy to explain why they vanish - they get unloaded from memory, and unlike normal monsters, the game doesn't store their X/Y coordinates and stats. (NeverCount could be related to this part, but it could just as well be related to anything else).
But this means that even if you change the animations you woun't do anithyng exept changing the AI... hard work no result...... seems this is a dea end unless you are going to do a lot of CE... I recomend changing other aspects of the game because this will drive you away from modmaking and we don't want that (maybe Laz but I'm sure he want all of us out of here so he can view all the forum in 0.0000001s)
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Nefarius » Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:22 am

Well, changing the animations can help a bit to avoid the problem - there is no way to fix it 100%, except for excessive amounts of CE, that I wouldn't recommend to anyone (especially because I don't think loosing skeletons is a reason to re-write a ton of handles).

Anyway, changing animations can help.

Remove GH (set GH and KB columns in MonStats2.txt to 0), will make those monsters never get into "hit recovery" (they won't flash, it just indicates whenever they have GH/KB*), editing the attack speed of summons (in animdata.d2) can make them finish enemies faster, but also unbalance the game...

^This is not much work, would take only 5 minutes.



*
DD
DT
KB
GH
SQ

are all non AI specific, I.E. no AI requires them.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Zhadoom » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:07 pm

Thx Nefarius,
especially because I don't think loosing skeletons is a reason to re-write a ton of handles
Well the skeletons dont bother me that much... its the iron golem (that i want to make from an aura item) that would be a pain in the ass if he is lost...
Well, changing the animations can help a bit to avoid the problem
it seems to me that you and SilverShadowHell don't understand me right (or maybe i don't understand you 2 :mrgreen: ). The changing anymation isn't for the summons to prevent them from disapearing. The HireableAI prevents them from disapearing (as stated above). But the hireableAI uses animations and attacks, that are not all supported by skeletons or golems.

Anyway... ;) I will try your suggestions step by step (along with other stuff) and reply the results tomorrow...

until then, mucho greetings

Hakan
Last edited by Zhadoom on Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by snowknight » Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:35 pm

Nefarius";p="243749" wrote:I believe that the NeverCount setting in monstats has something to do with unloading/reloading units. It is usually set to 1 only for summons and some map specific units. It could be that the game uses this column to control whenever it should be "unloaded" or "saved". (I.E. so that, when a map part unloads, the fallen you saw there before remains exactly in that spot, and doesn't vanish)
I doubt it. I do know it's used by the quest code. Set NeverCount on fallen and they don't have to be killed for the DoE quest. I believe it works with the other quests, but I haven't tested it.
Zhadoom";p="243761" wrote:2. Well how about using hirelingAI like described above? They seem to never disapear. It just has missing animations and the summons won't attack with hirelingAI. Couldn't i use this for iron golem too? (assuming i can manage the graphic/attck problem)
The hirelingAI is likely coded to require values from hirelings.txt. I know there's some serious hardcoding around that file so making the change there to allow attacks may not be doable (without ce).

The graphics disappearing is just missing animation modes. Hirelings like running, minions don't.

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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Nefarius » Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:53 pm

In this case NeverCount is related to the spawning routine rather then the quest, the counter probably checks against a list of instance IDs (the ID value between 1-FFFFFFFF given to every unit, per type of course).
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Zhadoom » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:17 am

Ok i tested a lot last night... this post may become a little long...

@Nefarius + snowknight
My result was "NeverCount" and "GH" doesn't seem to affect summon disapearing, like snowknight wrote... However...


there are good and bad news!

The good news first:
There is a simple way to make summons not disapear anymore. You just have to set the "Pettype" column in "skills.txt" to "hireable" for your summon-skill. Thats easy to test. Just make your char run verry fast (via charstat.txt) and try.
I tested that with skeletons. They act normal, they attack normal, and they have no animation bugs. And of course they never disapear. If they get lost, they are back again, when you use a waypoint, a portal or a teleport skill. Now this would be exactly what i want (especially for iron golem)



The bad news:
Setting the pettype coulumn to "hireable" makes the icon of your summons (the one, where u can see their health and/or numer) screwed. When i tested, the icon became a rague-hireable icon, and the text under the icon was something like "Now greetings..." - probably the start of Warrivs introduction talk.

PS:
I also found out, that setting the ai for skeletons to hireableAI DOES NOT prevent them from disapearing (unlike i wrote in my earlier post). I just didn't tested it well enough... sorry for that.



But i am 100% sure that setting the pettype column to "hireable" works! Cause the skeletons did get lost. But they were back after using a portal or waypoint. So they did not disapear or get unloaded completely. You can verify that pretty easy.

After founding that, i tried to change the "skeleton" entry in "pettype.txt", to be like the "hireable" entry, and use "skeleton" in "pettype" coulumn of "skills.txt" again, to prevent the screwed icon.
I tried to change every single value to be the same as in the "hireable" row, but when i set the "pettype" column in "skills.txt" back to "skeleton" they tend to disapear again.
Even if i copy+paste the entire "hireable" row of "pettype.txt" into the "skeleton" row (except the 2 first columns of course), the result is not the same, when using "skeleton" for pettype or "hireable" for pettype in "skills.txt" ... verry strange :crazyeyes:

I hope one of you can enlight my mind... cause i have no clue what all this is about. :help:

Thx in advance
Hakan
Last edited by Zhadoom on Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Nefarius » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:42 am

I hope one of you can enlight my mind... cause i have no clue what all this is about.
Just because it is found in a txt does not mean the txt controls it. Settings like these are still hardcoded to that line, and that line only.

*This is where the special effects in states.txt come from as another example (all the server side effects of a state are hardcoded, such as the effects of skilldelay, uninterruptable)



PS: As already noted here, hirelings have a phantasmagoria of hardcoded settings you must check if the game is stable. That means you need to see what happens when you have a hireling with you, what happens when he dies, when you resurrect him, save/load process.
Last edited by Nefarius on Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zhadoom
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Re: Skelletons and golems get lost - is there a workaround ?

Post by Zhadoom » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:52 am

So there is no way to "copy" the effects from the "hirable" row to another without CE?

Is there any way that i can use "hireable" for pettype and fix that icon issue? (There are 4 Icons in the "hireable" row... maybe i could add one, but how do i make my summon use the 5th icon?)

thx for the fast reply

Concerning your PS:
What i know by now is: There is no error when u have a merc at the same time. And Save/Load works fine too (of course skeletons are not saved between games... there is just no error). I will test the rest tonight, thx.
Last edited by Zhadoom on Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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