Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

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sokol815
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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by sokol815 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:52 am

Montex" wrote:i may add something for really lazy people :) Still checking if its possible...

EDIT: commited gold collector. Hopefully there are no bugs :) You can now extract / upgrade some items for gold just like you could for cube points
Does the gold collector use the plugy stashed gold amount? Cause that would be amazing.

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by Montex » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:36 am

It uses stashed gold but not plugy stashed gold. Cube recipes can not access plugy gold.
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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by sokol815 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:08 pm

Montex" wrote:It uses stashed gold but not plugy stashed gold. Cube recipes can not access plugy gold.
That's what I figured. Definitely cool, though. just started playing around with the gold collector this morning.

I like the fewer/larger piles of gold... So helpful.

Just updated to the new commit adding imperial/royal gems. The royal gem graphics look decent, but the imperial graphics really don't feel right.

Clytemnestra is now working on Nightmare Baal. She is level 667. I killed the ancients before I updated to the commit tweaking the ancients, so I got 80ish levels from that, kinda crazy.

Clytemnestra's resistances are mostly ok... elementals are hovering around 110% right now, magic is down to -100%... yeah... gotta fix that one.

Clytemnestra is running with a trinity-demon armor. I added max-sockets to it with a cube-scroll and then put in a unique jewel that greatly enhanced the defense. I think I'll put a couple more of those in there. The armor, as you can see, is providing about 200% res-all. Her Sibyl orb is providing 300% res-all (255% magic). She's also currently getting 18k life from her crafted Belt.... I think it has now consumed 6x unique ring + unique amulets.

@Montex: I'm sad to see that the collector recipe for extracting zy-el scrolls and zy-el scroll fragments have been removed.... I suppose the reason for this removal was the ridiculous collector values for royal/imperial gems/skulls? I'd like to see the ability to cube zy-el scrolls/fragments come back, even if it involves inflated costs. Realistically, now one would have to farm undocumented monsters and pray to the drop-chance gods that the 1% chance for dropping a scroll fragment is rolled... Please do not force all players to do the exact same thing over-and-over... I liked being able to choose where I did my grinding :D .

I'm also surprised a gold collector recipe was not added to extract a tome into a zy-el scroll for a reasonable cost (100million?) Is that in the plans? If that was added, I think it would take the mod back to being reasonable. I would love to see the Zy-El mod's versatility of supplies being sustained...

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by Montex » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:01 pm

sigh... Everyone wants ZyEls back :( Has anyone tried cube adders?
lets try to fix those to be usable:
<Zy-El Scroll Fragment> x 2 + <Demon Box> x 2 + <Perfect Skull> x 2 + <Elixir> x 2 ---> <Double Cube Adder>
<Zy-El Scroll Fragment> x 3 + <Demon Box> x 3 + <Perfect Skull> x 3 + <Elixir> x 3 ---> <Triple Cube Adder>
<Zy-El Scroll Fragment> x 5 + <Demon Box> x 5 + <Perfect Skull> x 5 + <Elixir> x 5 ---> <Quint Cube Adder>
<Zy-El Scroll Fragment> x 10 + <Demon Box> x 10 + <Perfect Skull> x 10 + <Elixir> x 10 ---> <Deka Cube Adder>
<Zy-El Scroll Fragment> x 20 + <Demon Box> x 20 + <Perfect Skull> x 20 + <Elixir> x 20 ---> <DoDeka Cube Adder>
complete Zy-El Scroll (7 fragments) gives x30 bonus which is completely screwed up if compares to adders imho. it roughly replaces 30 cube locks (+ some other mostly cheap junk) each worth of ~7mil
Currently cube adders seems way overpriced and zyel scroll way underpriced imo.
Suggest some alternative recipe for adders worth around 7 mil but requiring different mats than lock (which requires Zy + gems + elixirs) or zyel frags. Possible candidates are dboxes, dkeys, posters, unq rings, amulets, charms, high cards, something else valuable. Thus players could choose what to spend for upgrades between 1) gold, 2) lock mats, 3) adder mats, 4) found zyel.
According to this logic ZyEl scroll should cost ~200mil and the find chances should be tied to this amount of gold. But if scroll can be bought then the upgrade choices are reduced to gold, lock mats, adder mats...
Zyel scroll can also be used to gain some nice items... But imo those should be reserved to the end game as rewards for successful insanity runs not someting you would equip while running acts.

That is how i see things. feel free to comment
EDIT: and if anyone wants to make some gem graphics that would look decent in 28x28 resolution and diablo palete i would gladly replace imperial gems graphics myself :)
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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by sokol815 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:25 pm

Side note: The increased drop chances for Zy runes has been great. They now feel like they appear often enough.

On to the post below!

TL;DR:

Once again, I ask, please don't turn this back into Vanilla Diablo II where hours upon hours of grinding are invested for an uncertain amount of return. The joy of ZyEl is that the best items could be gained through steady tracking of progress towards any given goal.... this was due to the utility of the collector system and it's potential use in every part of ZyEl upgrading.
Montex" wrote:sigh... Everyone wants ZyEls back :( Has anyone tried cube adders?
lets try to fix those to be usable:
<Zy-El Scroll Fragment> x 2 + <Demon Box> x 2 + <Perfect Skull> x 2 + <Elixir> x 2 ---> <Double Cube Adder>
<Zy-El Scroll Fragment> x 3 + <Demon Box> x 3 + <Perfect Skull> x 3 + <Elixir> x 3 ---> <Triple Cube Adder>
<Zy-El Scroll Fragment> x 5 + <Demon Box> x 5 + <Perfect Skull> x 5 + <Elixir> x 5 ---> <Quint Cube Adder>
<Zy-El Scroll Fragment> x 10 + <Demon Box> x 10 + <Perfect Skull> x 10 + <Elixir> x 10 ---> <Deka Cube Adder>
<Zy-El Scroll Fragment> x 20 + <Demon Box> x 20 + <Perfect Skull> x 20 + <Elixir> x 20 ---> <DoDeka Cube Adder>
complete Zy-El Scroll (7 fragments) gives x30 bonus which is completely screwed up if compares to adders imho. it roughly replaces 30 cube locks (+ some other mostly cheap junk) each worth of ~7mil
Currently cube adders seems way overpriced and zyel scroll way underpriced imo.
Suggest some alternative recipe for adders worth around 7 mil but requiring different mats than lock (which requires Zy + gems + elixirs) or zyel frags. Possible candidates are dboxes, dkeys, posters, unq rings, amulets, charms, high cards, something else valuable. Thus players could choose what to spend for upgrades between 1) gold, 2) lock mats, 3) adder mats, 4) found zyel.
According to this logic ZyEl scroll should cost ~200mil and the find chances should be tied to this amount of gold. But if scroll can be bought then the upgrade choices are reduced to gold, lock mats, adder mats...
Zyel scroll can also be used to gain some nice items... But imo those should be reserved to the end game as rewards for successful insanity runs not someting you would equip while running acts.

That is how i see things. feel free to comment
EDIT: and if anyone wants to make some gem graphics that would look decent in 28x28 resolution and diablo palete i would gladly replace imperial gems graphics myself :)
Yes, I will offer a solution below, but first I will provide a little background as to why i came to my suggestion:

It is pretty obvious that given 2 tiers of items, cube adders and ZyEl scrolls, if the 2nd is vastly superior to the 1st, and both tiers require the same scarce resource, that the first will be abandoned as soon as physically possible for the efficiency of the 2nd.

The only way it will ever make sense to invest 20 ZyEl scroll fragments into the creation of a dodeka cube adder is if you have the capability to quickly and easily produce further ZyEl scroll fragments at a rate such that 20 fragments are a trivial investment in time/energy. With the changes you have made so far, this point will never be reached.

Worst case analysis (most applicable for "farming ZyEl scrolls"):
Let's assume you ended up with 7 Zy-El scroll fragments and that they are all fragment 6... you need to transmute 6 of them into different numbers so that you can make your ZyEl scroll...

You have a re-roll success chance based on how many different numbers you still need:
1st: 85% (still need 6 numbers, so all but the original is successful): 6 / 7
2nd: 71% (need any other of 5 numbers.... etc.) 5 /7
3rd: 57% (4 / 7)
4th: 43% (3 / 7)
5th: 28% (2 / 7)
6th: 14% (1 / 7)

It will take approximately 1/(%chance of success) rolls to get the correct fragment:
1/.85 = 1.18 rerolls
1/.71 = 1.41 rerolls
1/.57 = 1.76 etc...
1/.43 = 2.33
1/.28 = 3.57
1/.14 = 7.14

total average rerolls to turn 7 scroll-fragments of the same number into 7 different numbers: 17.39.

scroll re-roll cost is currently imperial gem + elixir, which comes out to a gold equivalent cost of approximately 2,725,000 X 17.39 = ~48 million gold

You have now taken your 7 scroll fragments, 48 million gold and hundreds of tedious clicks to turn them into a ZyEl scroll... and this is still 4x more useful than creating a 7x cube adder.

De-coupling cube-adders and Zy-El scroll fragments would fix this problem... perhaps cube adders could require Zy runes in place of Zy-El scroll fragments... this cost seems much more in-line with the utility of cube adders. At this price-point, a dodeka cube adder would cost about 81 million gold and 15000 collector points (or 20 dboxes that you amazingly have sitting around)

Another line of thought:

The main thing bugging me with the changes in your mod is the uncertainty of the outcome... if you can find a way to fix that, you will bring it back in-line with the best part of ZyEl.

The End-game for players is figuring out how to become more powerful as quickly as possible. the part they will turn out to hate the most is the resource which is most limited.... especially if it is something with a ridiculously low drop chance and ridiculously specific monster requirements, yet is intended to be used as a crafting resource. A great failure of Diablo II was the uncertain rewards for large amounts of time investment. ZyEl managed to prevent that by allowing transmutation of other gathered resources into the precious resources you can not gain without great specific time investments.

Sure, 100 million may be too cheap for a zy-el scroll proper... make it cost 300 million to make a single scroll... but do not completely remove the ability for gold and collector points to have utility in the end-game. (Another area where vanilla Diablo II fell short, gold was useless at high levels of play)

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by Montex » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:17 am

added Zyel frags and scrolls to cube recipes again. They are more expensive than they used to be in 4.4 though.

there is some problem with magic resist though that can not be fixed without corrupting saves. Any single item can have no more than 255 magic resist (other resists are capped at 4000 per item).
So far im using crafted charm recipes to deal with magic resist ingame but i doubt those would last for too long and sooner or later i would have to think of some other way to fix the magic resist. Some possible solutions are:
1) modifying itemstatcost to cap it at 4000 like other resists. Proper fix but i doubt anyone wants wipe (including all items in shared stash that have magic resist)...
2) changing (decreasing) magic resist loss per level
3) capping it at some point so it would not decrease past certain level.
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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by sokol815 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:01 am

Montex" wrote:added Zyel frags and scrolls to cube recipes again. They are more expensive than they used to be in 4.4 though.

there is some problem with magic resist though that can not be fixed without corrupting saves. Any single item can have no more than 255 magic resist (other resists are capped at 4000 per item).
So far im using crafted charm recipes to deal with magic resist ingame but i doubt those would last for too long and sooner or later i would have to think of some other way to fix the magic resist. Some possible solutions are:
1) modifying itemstatcost to cap it at 4000 like other resists. Proper fix but i doubt anyone wants wipe (including all items in shared stash that have magic resist)...
2) changing (decreasing) magic resist loss per level
3) capping it at some point so it would not decrease past certain level.

Seems like the best thing to do right now is to change the magic resist loss/level to be a little less and cap it at a reasonable amount (1000? 2000?), I bet in the future you will find other changes that you want to make which would require a complete wipe, so you can normalize it then.

LawofJohn
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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by LawofJohn » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:59 pm

Wut? Theres a github up with "Unoffical" patches? And the forums slowly coming back to life?

Did someone finaly slay diablo irl, thus bringing back everyone from the pits of hell? XD

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by Polymorph » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:56 am

Montex" wrote:added Zyel frags and scrolls to cube recipes again. They are more expensive than they used to be in 4.4 though.

there is some problem with magic resist though that can not be fixed without corrupting saves. Any single item can have no more than 255 magic resist (other resists are capped at 4000 per item).
So far im using crafted charm recipes to deal with magic resist ingame but i doubt those would last for too long and sooner or later i would have to think of some other way to fix the magic resist. Some possible solutions are:
1) modifying itemstatcost to cap it at 4000 like other resists. Proper fix but i doubt anyone wants wipe (including all items in shared stash that have magic resist)...
2) changing (decreasing) magic resist loss per level
3) capping it at some point so it would not decrease past certain level.
I think you should go for 1, but make absolutely clear that the particular commit and beyond will break saves. It should be more important to get in the major changes and fixes that break things early on so that you have a stable base to go on for later.

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by sokol815 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:42 am

Polymorph" wrote:
Montex" wrote:added Zyel frags and scrolls to cube recipes again. They are more expensive than they used to be in 4.4 though.

there is some problem with magic resist though that can not be fixed without corrupting saves. Any single item can have no more than 255 magic resist (other resists are capped at 4000 per item).
So far im using crafted charm recipes to deal with magic resist ingame but i doubt those would last for too long and sooner or later i would have to think of some other way to fix the magic resist. Some possible solutions are:
1) modifying itemstatcost to cap it at 4000 like other resists. Proper fix but i doubt anyone wants wipe (including all items in shared stash that have magic resist)...
2) changing (decreasing) magic resist loss per level
3) capping it at some point so it would not decrease past certain level.
I think you should go for 1, but make absolutely clear that the particular commit and beyond will break saves. It should be more important to get in the major changes and fixes that break things early on so that you have a stable base to go on for later.
I'd be totally cool with that... I'm kinda reaching a breaking point with my sorceress right now... she is level 958 and is having a very tough time finding enough magic resistance. She'll currently be OK for another 8 levels. Her trinity demon armor has capped on it's magic resistances, and she's already got 3 charms and a shield devoted to magic resistance. Her Sibyl orb is providing an additional 255% magic resistance. I can add other resistances to the torso armor at 10% for about 375k gold a pop, so those are trivial.

Anyways, she has kind of stalled out in act 2 of Hell difficulty, as she was having a difficult time dealing with the damage and speed of all the monsters there. Frozen orb is currently level 160 dealing about 100k damage. She has gotten quite a bit stronger since the last time I ran in there to try it out, so I think I will get back to doing that soon. I kind of like the idea of your character not being able to complete Hell difficulty until level 1000+, cause then you actually get to play the game a ton, and now finishing Hell difficulty is actually an accomplishment.

She managed to complete 1 ZyEl scroll from time spent running Insanities in the 2nd area of Act V normal difficulty. Took only 5 or 6 re-rolls to get 7 different scroll fragments. With that I made a Zy-El's Requiem Diadem. I now have 7 more scroll fragments from running additional insanities, but 6 of them are the same fragment, so I estimate I will need to spend 45 million gold on re-rolling them, which is pretty steep.

I currently have 684% gold find. about half coming from some unique jewels (kiwis?) that add gf/level and 255% that was manually added to a Stone of Jordan by 51 applications of P-Skull + elixir + ring -> +5% gold find. Funny enough, this method now comes out to be the cheapest (and only, really) way of obtaining decent amounts of gold find... It's just time-consuming to craft. Seems like a recipe involving a ZyEl scroll would go great here:

ZyEl scroll + P-Skull + ring => same ring + 1250% gold find (given that a ZyEl scroll costs about 300 million gold to make vs 5% gf increase costing 1.075 million gold + factor in convenience)

But, I know Montex is trying to get away from large gold find existing in this game... so I'm not sure that's likely to happen.

Anyways, I guess I'm going to go back to find a new shield, cause I know the usefulness of my current one is about to come to an end.

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by Montex » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:26 am

i have capped the resistance penalty at -1000 for all resistances.
i have necro at around lvl 600 starting hell and a sorc lvl ~220 starting nm. While summons die and cost tons of mana to resummon they still make summoners kinda op i guess. not quite sure how to solve this so far. Playing sorc with chain lightning as main skill atm.
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LawofJohn
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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by LawofJohn » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:24 pm

Ok this is weird. I dled the files from the github, put it into a seperate folder (So i can run it with D2SE), and something weird happened this morning. I went to change the /players to 127, but it only capped at 8? Did I do something wrong? If i try to rune the d2modsetup.exe, it says can not find .dll, but it does not say which one. Im so confused now o.O. Did not bother trying to up the players yesterday, so I did not post anything about it.

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by sokol815 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:31 pm

LawofJohn" wrote:Ok this is weird. I dled the files from the github, put it into a seperate folder (So i can run it with D2SE), and something weird happened this morning. I went to change the /players to 127, but it only capped at 8? Did I do something wrong? If i try to rune the d2modsetup.exe, it says can not find .dll, but it does not say which one. Im so confused now o.O. Did not bother trying to up the players yesterday, so I did not post anything about it.
you don't have to run the d2modsetup.exe with d2se. This version of ZyEl has been capped at /players8, which has the same effective difficulty/reward as /players127 in the old ZyEl. Welcome, and happy ZyEling!

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by sokol815 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 pm

Montex" wrote:i have capped the resistance penalty at -1000 for all resistances.
i have necro at around lvl 600 starting hell and a sorc lvl ~220 starting nm. While summons die and cost tons of mana to resummon they still make summoners kinda op i guess. not quite sure how to solve this so far. Playing sorc with chain lightning as main skill atm.
Awesome. Thanks, Montex. Some great work you are doing here, keep it up! Sorceress is now level 975 1/2 way through A3 Hell.

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by LawofJohn » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:10 pm

XD im not new ( as a matter of fact, if you go back 1-2 pages, you can see a thread I started with a paladin, whom I hit 2.5k till I had to reinstall windows). Quick question tho, any good rune words for 2 slot gloves/3 slot torsos? Im running a level 20 druid, I have Booster belt/boots. Im scratching my head, trying to remember a good runeword, but I cant remember one. As for my weapon, its a nice 3 slot bow with 2 flawed skulls and a flawed ruby :)

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by sokol815 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:26 pm

LawofJohn" wrote:XD im not new ( as a matter of fact, if you go back 1-2 pages, you can see a thread I started with a paladin, whom I hit 2.5k till I had to reinstall windows). Quick question tho, any good rune words for 2 slot gloves/3 slot torsos? Im running a level 20 druid, I have Booster belt/boots. Im scratching my head, trying to remember a good runeword, but I cant remember one. As for my weapon, its a nice 3 slot bow with 2 flawed skulls and a flawed ruby :)
Haha, my apologies. You can try out my super-basic runeword browser, it's just a webpage:
http://exilania.com/zyel/

Just set the max rune to the level 20 rune (r07) and search for "boot" (hit enter to do your search) seems like "Harvest", "Hearken", or my personal favorite, "Booster" would work just fine.

EDIT:
Just hit level 1000. Here's an image of my crafted belt.

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by LawofJohn » Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:38 pm

Ok so I finaly hit level 40, saved up a few points and got myself my first wolf/Oak sage. Now, question; Is there any way (besides investing more kill points/+skill points on eequipment) to boost summon damage/life? In ES, you could forge extra life/damage % onto equipment. Im just wondering if there is anyway to do that here.

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by sokol815 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:16 am

Hey guys. Time for a quick update. I finished hell difficulty at around level 1800 with Clytemnestra.

She is currently level 3587. Many of her spells have started doing huge amounts of damage, as I have capped the damage bonus from Energy(2047%). It has started rolling some cold spells over into the negatives, which is not fun. Luckily, frozen orb is still fine.

I was able to dump a huge amount of charms from my inventory after I was able to craft 6 zyel scrolls and turn them into a jewel with +180% mana, 450% all res, 900% magic find, and 150% physical resist. I'm currently working on increasing my gold find. The only recipe that currently exists for that is ring + elixir + PSkull/ISkull. If you use a PSkull, it increases the level requirement by 3, but it only costs 1.05 million gold for a 5% increase. I've currently dumped nearly 600 million gold into upgrading my Ring to have 2750% gold find. It's slow going, but eventually, I will be able to get up to a respectable 130k% gold find.

I've found that clearing the Suicide Sanctum gives the best return on time invested. Some monsters in there drop a huge amount of money. Quite frequently the ZyEl fragment 2 of 7 is dropped and the only enemy who is now a real threat seems to be the corpse exploder baddies.

I've almost got Nova maxed out.

I think I will soon switch to either my amazon, necromancer or assassin, as they are all pretty fun to play.

Happy ZyEling!

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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by Montex » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:04 pm

hopefully fixed the damage rollovers
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Re: Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

Post by Moonpaw » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:39 pm

so the zy el github is dead now? no changes for a month, and i found quite a few bugs over the holidays

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