sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

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sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Char » Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:59 pm

i reached a problem when doing the sorceress skills. to improve the value of energy, i renamed it to spellpower (for now) and made it increase the power of some skills (you hopefully know that, otherwise the spellpower subsection in the game mechanics subsection of my website might help).

now, i dont want to force each and every sorceress to use manashield and thus making vitality irrelevant. i would just get onlyspellpower sorceresses like there are onlydex bowamas right now. so... what to do? remove manashield?

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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Drackin » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:10 pm

well, you could make the increase for mana shield based on your spellpower really really low, and make the protection manashield provides pretty low, that would possibly prevent onlymana-sorc's
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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Char » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:45 pm

hmm. mana shield wont get any bonus from spellpower at all, seeing that its a nearly-passive skill, and passive skills dont get spellpower bonus.
its just that if spellpower increases the overall strength of skills. for other characters, thats no problem because they still need life to prevent death, but a sorceress with manashield can prevent dying with manashield, which seems to be an unfair advantage .....

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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Rattlecage » Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:56 pm

Have energy shiled add to dr, and have it get a bonus from Vitality.
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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Brother Laz » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:35 pm

It's not an 'unfair advantage', it's racial identity.

In D1, sorcs could get by with no vit points at all [except for the no-stun bug, so most NMs maxed vit anyway to avoid unintentional cheating]. And? If defense is important enough, it'll make people divide their points between strength [armor], dexterity [shield] and energy [spells] anyway.

Also, no melee class ever puts points into energy. :)
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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Char » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:47 pm

Brother Laz";p="120560" wrote:Also, no melee class ever puts points into energy. :)
thats not exactly true, if you get zero mana points per level up and energy enhances your berserk damage, mana and energy become important all of a sudden .....

EDIT: well, considering this, a lvl 99 sorc with no points in vitality would have about 40 life without items... well that might make them think about putting some things in vitality, too....
i am just looking for a way to make manashield no must-have ....
Last edited by Char on Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Brother Laz » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:53 pm

Ehm, no: just get one +30 mana item, enough mana steal to power whirlwind [or whatever the new mass kill skill will be], and pray for elemental weapons. A barb that needs energy will lose so much vit, str, will be unable to get enough dex to block decently, and will basically suck everywhere else compared to one that doesn't have energy, that it may be worth it to just endure physical immunes with a socketed magic lightning damage weapon with jewels of thunder.

And you need one elemental weapon anyway in case of phys/magic immunes, so instead of berserk, just get two elemental weapons.

As for mana shield: in D1, the rogue would sometimes use MS and sometimes not, and it depended on preference. If you can balance it so that one loses the same % of mana with mana shield than health without mana shield, you could emulate this. If the sorc has [eg.] 4x as much mana than life [depends on items and return for points], make MS take off 4x as much mana as damage.
Last edited by Brother Laz on Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Char » Fri Aug 08, 2003 4:10 pm

i am trying to make it possible for a barb to put 20 points in energy without loosing too much power. 20 points in energy enhance the damage nearly as much as 20 points in strength do (for berserk especially), so energy might be interesting at least for a berserk barb. furthermore, 1 energy gives 2 mana for barb. if it doesnt work, it will show up in the betatest ;).

gonna try your manashield tips.

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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by NewbieModder » Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:36 am

Perhaps a good way would be to nerf mana shield's reduction. Make it only convert 50% dmg into mana, as opposed to it's current values. Suddenly 40 life won't cut it anymore.
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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Char » Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:56 am

well, i already hate the low values, and so do lots of others, so this is maybe not the best idea... i think its better to increase the damage the manashield takes. but thanks anyways :)

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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by ChaoticDeath » Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:37 am

well here is an idea, though would be VERY HARD to implement. Have 4 different types of spellpower (str, dex,vit, and enr). Each different type upgrades a skill in its own way. This will allow for a ton of variation and different builds, so a sorc might actually use dex!

vit = Endurance
enr = Spellpower
str = Power
dex = Accuracy or something...

Just an idea ;).
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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by VonHundengebissen » Sun Aug 10, 2003 10:06 am

some ideas:
The main problem is everybody is frightend of a super mega godlike sorc. If you make the shild to strong nobody can stop her. If you make it to weak the sorc will have no chance in hell.
First idea: You need a several level of a skill to get a spezial bonus from spellpower, even spellpower is strong enough. Example:
Shild level 1 Spellpower 30 Bonus: +10 Prozent absorb
Shild level 2 Spellpower 100 Bonus +10 Prozent absorb (because the level is to low)
Shild level 20 Spellpower 100 Bonus +33 Prozent absorb

Second Idea: make shild only work on phys dam
Third Idea: you can use Idea 1 and you can say higher level although means more mana per point damage: level 1 2 mana per 1 dam
level 20 4 mana per 1 dam
Last Idea: Say: only a small period of time for every activation of the shield. And no manaregeneration in this period.

Hope this will help you :)
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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Char » Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:37 pm

hmm.
chaoticdeath: your idea will not be used, not because its lots of work, but because i dont think it is really good. this just makes barbarians even more focus on strength and maybe dex, and sorceresses even more focus on energy. thats, after all, not what i want to have.
i introduced spellpower because energy was a stat that was totally unused by everything that was no sorc or necro, and even lots of sorcs ignored energy totally (mine did, too). furthermore, i had to balance the fact that you dont get any mana from levelups (that means a lvl 99 barb with base energy has 10 mana without items), so i made barbs get at least some bonus from energy, so that points put in there arent completely wasted.

vonhundengebissen: manashield will receive no bonus from energy / spellpower at all. it is still strong. the "delay" idea is nice though. but making the damage to mana per point damage scale is no good idea because the difference between 3 and 2 points damage would be too extreme.

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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Brother Laz » Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:31 pm

Char";p="120571" wrote:i am trying to make it possible for a barb to put 20 points in energy without loosing too much power. 20 points in energy enhance the damage nearly as much as 20 points in strength do (for berserk especially), so energy might be interesting at least for a berserk barb.
Actually, 20 points in str do crap for bonus damage. Everyone just gets enough str to meet reqs and not a point more, and the dmg%/str in weapons.txt can't go high enough to make it worth it. [maybe a good thing, else chars would totally max str and ignore vit, and rely on damage to bash everything dead. Balancing this would mean screwing the balanced str-vit builds]
so i made barbs get at least some bonus from energy, so that points put in there arent completely wasted.
Hmm, exactly how much levelups into energy would you need to equal *1* Bahamut's item? :)

Maybe change all stat boosting items to % based [30% bonus to mana isn't going to do much with 10 base mana, and neither will 20% bonus strength help a sorc with base 10 strength].
Last edited by Brother Laz on Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Carnac » Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 pm

Brother Laz";p="121239" wrote: Actually, 20 points in str do crap for bonus damage. Everyone just gets enough str to meet reqs and not a point more, and the dmg%/str in weapons.txt can't go high enough to make it worth it. [maybe a good thing, else chars would totally max str and ignore vit, and rely on damage to bash everything dead. Balancing this would mean screwing the balanced str-vit builds]
Well, that is just not true (mostly speaking of Barb here), especially when you play Softcore (which i don't do anymore since quite long ago). I cannot recall the exact formula for calculating the STr Bonus to your final Damage, but it's definitely not "crap" or sth like that.
With decent equip (always speaking of vanilla lod here) it's possible to get 2000-2500 Life with a Barb without investing all the Points into vit after you met your str reqs.

I know even quite a lot of ppl playing str-only builds, using elite mace class weapons cause they have 1,1% dam/str instead of 1%.

I'll try to find that "guide" i read somewhere and post a translation (it's from a german forum)

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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by pmpch » Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:01 am

Carnac";p="121736" wrote:
Brother Laz";p="121239" wrote: Actually, 20 points in str do crap for bonus damage. Everyone just gets enough str to meet reqs and not a point more, and the dmg%/str in weapons.txt can't go high enough to make it worth it. [maybe a good thing, else chars would totally max str and ignore vit, and rely on damage to bash everything dead. Balancing this would mean screwing the balanced str-vit builds]
Well, that is just not true (mostly speaking of Barb here), especially when you play Softcore (which i don't do anymore since quite long ago). I cannot recall the exact formula for calculating the STr Bonus to your final Damage, but it's definitely not "crap" or sth like that.
With decent equip (always speaking of vanilla lod here) it's possible to get 2000-2500 Life with a Barb without investing all the Points into vit after you met your str reqs.

I know even quite a lot of ppl playing str-only builds, using elite mace class weapons cause they have 1,1% dam/str instead of 1%.

I'll try to find that "guide" i read somewhere and post a translation (it's from a german forum)
1 Strenght is approx. 1% ED. For LOD, 40 str = one 40% ED jewel. How effective the Str is in total all depends on the ED% you can get. Obviously, in a mod having 125% ED jewels (like TFW) the effective dmg gain through str/dex is alot worse, compared to LOD.
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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by Char » Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:18 pm

Test-Barbarian, lvl 99, screenshot here.

as you can see, the barb has 253 strength and deals 74-644 damage using concentration (lvl 26).
the weapon deals 18 to 153 damage (thundermaul), one of the rings grants +3 maximum damage.

the bonuses calculate as follows:
90% concentrate
72% mace mastery
151.8% strength bonus (60% / 100 strength)

together 313.8% bonus damage: (18 to 156) * (313.8%+100%) = (74.484 to 645.528)

so as we can see, strength does play an important role.

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Re: sorceress, mana shield and spellpower...

Post by noir » Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:40 pm

pmpch";p="121855" wrote:1 Strenght is approx. 1% ED. For LOD, 40 str = one 40% ED jewel. How effective the Str is in total all depends on the ED% you can get. Obviously, in a mod having 125% ED jewels (like TFW) the effective dmg gain through str/dex is alot worse, compared to LOD.
Note that stat bonus damage (str/dex) is calculated as non-weapon-ed%. So for a sword barb 40 str is equal to a 40% ed jewel socketed in armor. But if you compare different socketing options, you're better off socketing that 40% ed jewel and put 40 stat points in vit (for 160 life), that's more effective than putting those 40 stat points in str and socketing a perfect ruby for some 3x life.

Back to the mana shield issue. In LOD sorcs hardly need any energy, that's true. But even sorcs with more life than mana were using energy shield. It's just the same as every pally using holy shield, there's noting bad about it IMO.
Last edited by noir on Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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