What Do You Think of the Contests?

[Kraj]

We have run a few contests in recent months and they seem to be going pretty well. We'd like to hear what you think about them so far:

Do you enjoy the contests?
Is there anything we can do to improve them?
Are they pointless and stupid?
Is there a contest type you'd like to see?
Have you wanted to participate in a contest but didn't for some reason?
Are the contests being held too often?
Are the contests not being held often enough?
Are the rules clear?
Are the judges doing a good job?
Are the contest topics interesting? Should there be more variation?
Are the contests too complicated, too simple and restrictive or just right?
If you participated in a past contest, are you glad you did? Was it fun?

Please let us know what you think. We hope the contests add a little fun to the Keep, so if they don't we want to know about it!

[Modmaker]

I personally have never entered a contest but I have a suggestion. Why not have random keep members be chosen for each contest to be judges and choose the best entry, much like the jury system.

[Volf]

I like the idea of the contests but allot of the members are mod players rather than mod makers, so could be fun to se some contest where the players could also participate,, maybe something graphical d2 related

[SilverShadowHell]

How about a skill contest (another one for Laz, but maybe Hygiliak will have something to say if he returns)
For the players not modders a "idea" contest like let's say a story line contest will work just fine (I hope)
Or a map editing contest?? yes I know it is hard work and that someone like Volf (if he is alowed) will whin but.... It wouldn't hurt to try
Actualy there are no limits to what contest you can make (actualy all limits are on the mod making capabilities of the whole cociety, you can't make a New Quest contest cause only Kingpin will enter)

Other than that..... it is all perfect

[Brother Laz]

Wow, this list is almost bigger than the list of proc-skills on the unique contest winner.

· They are a fun diversion.

· The more complex, the better. There were twice as many entries for the set contest as for the unique and runeword contests. Sets reward thinking and creativity.

· A contest type that I'd like to see and that may have a lot of entries is some sort of skill editing contest, since everyone with a mod prides themselves on their edited skills, yet it doesn't take ages for the participants to compose an entry.

· Frequency and length is about right, except I'd add one week and subtract one week from the publishing process. I mean it took over a week after the contest ended to post the results, and reiyo was close to freaking out the evening before. That can't be healthy in the long term.

· I'd say the judges did a good job on the set and runeword contests. I lost the set contest fair and square. Not entirely convinced by the uniques contest, but the rules were fairly strict back then.

· If possible, less limitations. Allowing states.txt changes for the runeword contest was a step in the right direction, but I believe that all files should be editable as long as it does not interfere with normal gameplay [ie. no changing frost nova to do 5000 damage].

[Kraj]

Wow! I'm really suprised at how quickly so many responses came. And your posts are crammed with great info. Keep them coming!

So far the number one suggestion seems to be "Get non-modder players involved" and I'm already coming up with some cool ideas on how to do this. I have a feeling the staff will like some of them so hopefully we'll have some member involvement in place for the next contest.

The number two suggestion seems to be a skill contest. That's definitely one of the list-topping contest ideas, so it will happen soon, I'm sure. I'd also expect some other non-item contests to come along as well.

I personally have never entered a contest but I have a suggestion. Why not have random keep members be chosen for each contest to be judges and choose the best entry, much like the jury system.

I'm now working on ideas for involving other members in judging thanks to your and Volf's suggestions. I'm not sure random selection would work well, but I've got a couple other ideas I'm hoping the staffer like.

The more complex, the better. There were twice as many entries for the set contest as for the unique and runeword contests. Sets reward thinking and creativity.

This was a really interesting phenomenon. I think many of the staffers feared making the contest too complex would discourage people from participating, especially less-experienced modders, since they require a lot more work. (If you recall, the couple attempts at holiday-themed mini-mod contests had zero participation.) But too simple apparently is bad also. The next contest we're planning will definitely have more complexity, so it will be interesting to see the participation level.

I mean it took over a week after the contest ended to post the results, and reiyo was close to freaking out the evening before.

Please believe that the judges get the results done as quickly as they can. It's difficult to have the final results ready by the next Friday update for several reasons (I can go into detail if you want), but they understand the weekly update following the deadline is definitely the best timeframe for posting results and they try to meet that goal.

If possible, less limitations. Allowing states.txt changes for the runeword contest was a step in the right direction, but I believe that all files should be editable as long as it does not interfere with normal gameplay [ie. no changing frost nova to do 5000 damage].

I have a feeling the limitations will continue to be reduced. At first, there was concern that allowing too many text files to be edited would distract from the main purpose of the contest. For example, there was concern that if skills editing were allowed in the previous item contests, then a lot of people might be tempted to make an item that simply showcased a new skill. Not only would that kinda kill the possibility of a skill contest, but it would take away from the focus of designing the unique/set/runeword. The same applied for states since we didn't want the contest to turn into "who can find the prettiest overlay". But the reality of the entries was that each use of overlays fit well into the item theme, less than half of the entires used an overlay, and there were no entries that just slapped on a pointless overlay. So, I think we'll be more likely to allow edits in other text files as time goes on and participants show they understand and stick to the spirit of the contest.

However, allowing anything and everything to be edited could get very messy very fast. Especially if the modder doesn't thoroughly communicate what changes were made. Also, the paradox of creativity is the more restrictions that apply the more the mind is forced to think around them; few or no restrictions actually stifles creativity because - given too many choices - the mind sticks with what is most familiar.

Keep those ideas coming!

[Brother Laz]

I think many of the staffers feared making the contest too complex would discourage people from participating, especially less-experienced modders, since they require a lot more work. (If you recall, the couple attempts at holiday-themed mini-mod contests had zero participation.)

There is a big difference between a full blown mod and say, allowing people to make custom skills for their items. Or the states.txt modifications. Looking at the runeword entries, the top three had custom states.

But too simple apparently is bad also. The next contest we're planning will definitely have more complexity, so it will be interesting to see the participation level.

Any idea when this next contest will come...?

For example, there was concern that if skills editing were allowed in the previous item contests, then a lot of people might be tempted to make an item that simply showcased a new skill.

Yes, and they would lose badly and perhaps wise up the next time.

However, allowing anything and everything to be edited could get very messy very fast. Especially if the modder doesn't thoroughly communicate what changes were made.

In which case their entry would be filed into the round grey folder on the desktop. If someone doesn't deem the contest worthy of a brief explanation in his email, the judges should not deem his submission worthy of untangling the mess.

Also, the paradox of creativity is the more restrictions that apply the more the mind is forced to think around them; few or no restrictions actually stifles creativity because - given too many choices - the mind sticks with what is most familiar.

Yes, but I believe that can be handled by restricting the subject of the contest. Eg. runewords. Whatever the contestant does, it has to be related to runewords. No showing off that new gosu Chaos Sanctuary layout. And none of the changes should affect existing gameplay, so changing rune properties or something is also a no go.

Keep those ideas coming!

Never say anything like this in a thread, or it will die instantly.

[Char]

I mean it took over a week after the contest ended to post the results, and reiyo was close to freaking out the evening before. That can't be healthy in the long term.

Yes, definitely. Results should be available within a week, but it really sometimes is hard to judge entries within a week. One person has to write all the incoming files together, and probably add some cube recipes to produce them all. Doing so for the set item contest was a lot of work... And then, you still have to let the other judges try all the items, and have a discussion about what you think about them.
Judges are trying to be quick, effective and fair, sometimes its hard to be all these things at the same time .

If possible, less limitations. Allowing states.txt changes for the runeword contest was a step in the right direction, but I believe that all files should be editable as long as it does not interfere with normal gameplay [ie. no changing frost nova to do 5000 damage].

Yes, less limitations is a good idea. Though some limitations should stay: For example, no new skills. Maybe skills.txt editing should in some cases be allowed (for extra skill synergies from item effects maybe), but totally new skills are something for a skill contest, not any other contest.

At first we had a lot of regulations because we wanted to keep things simple and let people participate, but now, as the contests are obviously running well, we can probably move on to some more complex things.

Any idea when this next contest will come...?

Hopefully soon . Since I cannot judge currently due to reallife issues (namely exams I have to learn for), I might even be able to participate... though I dont really have time for doing so either.

[Kraj]

There is a big difference between a full blown mod and say, allowing people to make custom skills for their items. Or the states.txt modifications. Looking at the runeword entries, the top three had custom states.

Very true, and we're working on finding the happy medium. BTW, only the top two had custom states; the third was a special mention and the fourth was a runner-up. The third-place finisher had no new state.

Any idea when this next contest will come...?

Man, you're shameless. I can tell you that, generally, as soon as one contest ends discussion for the new one begins. That discussion includes: picking a topic, determining the rules, determining what qualities the entries should have (ie., the spirit of the contest), writing up the annoucement and polishing its content. Since no one person does this, it happens at the speed which the various judges log on and leave their input and it depends on how many topics are an issue of discussion. So, the answer is "Whenever it's ready". Nya nya.

Yes, and they would lose badly and perhaps wise up the next time.

Or be discouraged and not participate at all. We want to avoid that if possible.

In which case their entry would be filed into the round grey folder on the desktop. If someone doesn't deem the contest worthy of a brief explanation in his email, the judges should not deem his submission worthy of untangling the mess.

Damn, you must be a teacher. Harsh. Again we want to encourage people to participate and even if their entry is less than stellar, they still put time and effort into it, which is more than dozens of other Keep modders did. That's nothing against people who choose not to participate, but I think the work of those who do needs ot be respected. And when only a handful of people participate it behooves the judges to use every entry. At least half of the entries for the runeword contest did not follow the direction of submitting only the lines that were edited.

Yes, but I believe that can be handled by restricting the subject of the contest. Eg. runewords. Whatever the contestant does, it has to be related to runewords. No showing off that new gosu Chaos Sanctuary layout. And none of the changes should affect existing gameplay, so changing rune properties or something is also a no go.

I agree.

Never say anything like this in a thread, or it will die instantly.

Whoops!