So about that kraken stance barb...

[nimrod]

Hi
I'm sure we all remember pza's idea of making a barb that uses kraken stance. But we "decided" that it can only be done with the overpowered fortress.

Anyway, the barb is a character with many "problems". He doesn't have a good AoE attack (not really), kraken stance is "useless" (again not really) and the melee barb sucks (now that's true. Just joking not really). Yes we all know of these problems, but still I wanted to try it out myself.

Now I'm sure that others have tried and succeded with this same build, but they never really gave any examples of their success. So here is a video of my kraken stance, melee barb.


Skills:
Just the standard stance+support skills build. Maxed defenders, titan strike, mountain king, kraken stance. One point in the thunderslam, C. strike and SoR. My main attack is SoR (though I didn't use it in the video cause it doesn't proc and I wanted to proc ).

Equipment:
The basic melee barb gear. With lots of life and defense, but with as many +skills as possible. My weapons are khan jewelword (WotP oskill, +skills) and hellreaper (nightmare on attack, +skills, mana leach).


Btw, if you're wondering, I can do all summoning uberquests. All dungeon uberquests (though rathma requires luck). I can't do the three hard uberlevels though.

Well, I'm not sure why I'm posting this, maybe just to brag (though there's little to brag about). But if you had any success with other melee barb or kraken builds then feel free to post them here.

[aerial]

I would try hawk talon / eagle flight vesrion. Still it would work worse than those skills + lion/wolf stance, but lot better (faster) than melee non aoe barb (not counting SoR).
Eagle flight 5/4 wpn damage, and 40 yards radius, makes this skill very cool (in comparition to short range bow ricochet). You can even throw few axes, follow them and they split up in air hitting mobs (even if there is no wall arround). It would be hard in cow level, because before they split up you would get surrounded by cows, but in this place hawk talon's are perfect.

I know that this kind of thrower/axe barb is quite explored (all jedi movies, only with different stance, but playing style is same), and that probably wouldnt be interesting to watch.

[nimrod]

Yes you're right, hawk talons is perfect for this stance in some places.

I do have a point in all throwing skills, I might try it.

However the main point was to make use of SoR (which you can't see on the video but it's actually my main attack). the thing that is bad about the throwing version would be that you can't use titan strike.

[pza]

actually, i've played my kraken stance barb to 120 today (been playing him since 3-4 days again!) and someone read my mind in this thread. i've been thinking about making a guide. i'm actually testing scattershot. heaven arc produces so much lag with it, that you may even want to quit sometimes xD but it's fun, for sure.

actually, i use shower of rocks as main skill (it owns, but it's sadly just a one point wonder) and fortress. i maxed eagle, snake and kraken stance(and mk and also many some points in def spirits/g manifest). actually i find fortress somehow bad to deliver the poison damage, that's why i use defenders with snake stance as crowdkillers (retaliate ownz!) in players 1 it requires 1-2 hits with kraken stance to kill a k3kba orb.

now as far as nimrod told, i've got a completely different item setup than he has:

eruption sword + frostbite gloves (5 skills, nice damage and ~ 100 spelldamage)
claw of the spirit wolf as 2. weapon (not used to hit, but gives massive skills and GIFT OF THE WILD lvl 22, very nice, aswell as 6 free sockets for again 48% spelldamage)

berserkergang helmet (chance to avoid + total char def, which is important beacause we have no runemaster)

ahriman runeword *don't say what kind of item it is* gives us again nice def and other nic stats, bloodstar doesn't do much i think... maybe alittle, thanks to the nice spelldamage...

then, toesie warmers... total char def and life, that's nice. i used to use akarat's but that's boring... and the fireworks from toesies are great imo

armor: still robe of steel from older patch, i guess it's optimum, maybe atlantis might be a bit better, though. don't have it, and it's fine like it is.

rings + amulet = 5 skills, 29 spelldamage, etc.



stats: 22,5k life, 43k def, 165 unspent statpoints
damage: without buffs and normal attack 30k-55k
with gift of the wild: 38k - 68k

definetly, nimrod described it correctly, every summoning uberquest is easy/middle, other uberquests are doable, only the 3 hardest ones are pretty difficult, though i didn't try anything else than tran at players 5 (i was bored , but since then i didn't try it any more)

tactics in k3kba: run with wolfstance to orb, switch to kraken stance, attack it 2-3 times with shower of rocks (just to make sure), run away with wolf stance again, repeat at other orb, so that all orbs are dead, then go kill the skeletons with defenders' retaliate+ snake stance(wait for the retal to go of, then switch back) and fortress+kraken and for single targets kraken stance + shower of rocks.

the point of snake stance is that it deals very nice passive damage. i'd say if attacking the death projector constantly for example, the poison damage is about as high as the damage of kraken stance. using both means double damage.



scattershot deals good area damage, but is pretty slow in killing. i didn't really planned the char for using a bow, but even though i would say scattershot with heaven's arc doesn't kill as fast than with my normal weapon combo. especially the orbs are very tedious to kill.

all in all, i somehow believe now again in my kraken barb, i just didn't want to make a new thread about it yet, since i'm still making experiences. and now that nimrod made that nice (but long^^) video, you can imagine how to play the char.

now, what do you think, shall i try a quick guide?

edit: i forgot to write... my abjurer banishes the enemies and is nice at killing too... he once even survived azmodan(tried it twice)

[Logger_120]

Funny, I too am playing a Kraken Stance barb right now. He's in act II Terror and breezing through emenies event though I don't ahev my main stance yet.

I went with the approach aerial suggested, Eagle Flight and Hawk Talons. I love Eagle Flight it pwns. Right now I am working with all 1 point skills except Mtn King b/c I'm doing the 1000 AC. My setup now is centered around high physical dmg and Crushing Blow. Lion Stance is my current stance of choice and Jalal's Claw is my weapon. Once I hit lvl 90 I will switch to Kraken Stance and Arreat's Aim which seems like perfect weapon for this build (50% CtC lvl 16 Gurad Tower on Kill). I will probably keep Jalal's Claw on switch for elemental immunes. Bosses are handled by either SoR or Fortress depending on their threat to me.

I was also considering creating a guide, but I was looking at something more generic like Maxx Power's Unholy Pally guide, since there are multiple ways to make use of Kraken Stance. Maybe we could all use this thread to pool our thoughts and ideas together.

Basically we would try to look at the possible Kraken variants, ie; melee, thrower, or hybrid. It will be interesting to see how the improvement of Fortress in 1.57 affects this build. Also we would need to consider possible routes to getting to Kraken Stance since it is a lvl 90 skill. For example, my thrower uses 1 point Lion Stance and a big physical dmg axe but pza maxed Snake and Eagle Stances for the poison dmg. Also the use of procs, summons, mercs should be outlined. For example, I am planning to use Arreat's Aim for the Guard Tower proc, a Act I Priestess for Barrage with Harp of Vengeance for 30% CtC arrow on Striking, and either Defenders to spread dmg or Protectors to boost it. Really there are a lot of options here so I think, a group approach would be helpful.

[nimrod]

actually, i've played my kraken stance barb to 120 today (been playing him since 3-4 days again!) and someone read my mind in this thread.

now as far as nimrod told, i've got a completely different item setup than he has:

eruption sword + frostbite gloves (5 skills, nice damage and ~ 100 spelldamage)
claw of the spirit wolf as 2. weapon (not used to hit, but gives massive skills and GIFT OF THE WILD lvl 22, very nice, aswell as 6 free sockets for again 48% spelldamage)

Spell damage doesn't do anything to missiles, that's why I socketed my weapons with ohms. However, it can help when attacking with melee. The reason I'm using khan is because it gives lots of extra fire damage and +3skills, from the two weapons I have +6 skills. My physical damage isn't as high as yours, but still it's not bad.

berserkergang helmet (chance to avoid + total char def, which is important beacause we have no runemaster)

I used the unique diadem in the video, now I'm using the helm with vindicate proc. Forgot the name. It has resist, attributes, vindicate and ok defense.

ahriman runeword *don't say what kind of item it is* gives us again nice def and other nic stats, bloodstar doesn't do much i think... maybe alittle, thanks to the nice spelldamage...

Isn't it obvious from the other equipment items you wrote that it's in either a belt or glove.
Anyway, I also used this runeword for a long time, but changed it to the amazon set that gives 1-400 f/c/l damage.

then, toesie warmers... total char def and life, that's nice. i used to use akarat's but that's boring... and the fireworks from toesies are great imo

I would of used these if I didn't need the resist that my boots give.

armor: still robe of steel from older patch, i guess it's optimum, maybe atlantis might be a bit better, though. don't have it, and it's fine like it is.

I used it for a long time too (most of the leveling and uberquesting). But I somehow managed to get my hands on scales of the serpent sacred unique armor, Which is perfect for this build (low str req, +4 skills, spell damage, fcr, minion life, resist, attributes, good defense).

stats: 22,5k life, 43k def, 165 unspent statpoints
damage: without buffs and normal attack 30k-55k
with gift of the wild: 38k - 68k

I now have around 33k life.
About the same defense, but less listed damage.
Because you maxed snake stance, you don't have maxed points in mountain king, which means that your life is kinda low, however, snake stance is very useful in some places. It's hard to say whats better.

scattershot deals good area damage, but is pretty slow in killing. i didn't really planned the char for using a bow, but even though i would say scattershot with heaven's arc doesn't kill as fast than with my normal weapon combo. especially the orbs are very tedious to kill.

Because scattershot is a missile, so all your spell damage is wasted. When meleeing, the attacks that actually hit are very powerful.

now, what do you think, shall i try a quick guide?

No, wait for 1.57 first. You never know what will change.

-----------------------------------------------

I went with the approach aerial suggested, Eagle Flight and Hawk Talons.

The throwing skills have one main advantage over SoR, and that is that they can proc. It's also somewhat more safe than the melee skills but if you can tank, I found the melee skills to be even more effective than throwing.

I was considering creating a guide more generic like Maxx Power's Unholy Pally guide.
1. Basically we would try to look at the possible Kraken variants

2. Also we would need to consider possible routes to getting to Kraken Stance since it is a lvl 90 skill.

3. Also the use of procs, summons, mercs should be outlined.

4. Really there are a lot of options here so I think, a group approach would be helpful. Maybe we could all use this thread to pool our thoughts and ideas together.

I listed all the things you said, cause I don't want to quote more...

1. ...and there are many. Even though both me and pza made a melee barb, they still are very different. I guess the hybrid would be the best because of the new 1.57 skill that lowers resist. So you'd just use your throwing weapon to lower resist and use hawk talons from time to time, and then use SoR+titan strike for crowds.

2. I used my defenders for leveling. I also put 1 point in each of the throwing skills and then used bear claw/stampede in order to keep them safe. Pza used snake stance, you used lion stance+throwing skills. Any other way

3. I never use a merc. My summons are very important though. I use them for uberquests like the new summoning uberquest/CoV and also for leveling (they have around 27k life ).

4. Yes I agree.

[aerial]

Perfect barb imo:

snake stance + maxed stampade (as high as possible) on switch
stance (best would be wolf/lion, but kraken is fine too) + eagle flight/hawk talons.

Enter the room, 8s stun everything with stampade (and poison same time), switch weapon and stance, spam eagle flight to kill stunned mobs faster.

This is possible, and barb has enough skillpoints to invest in all those skills. Moreover, since %poison items wont work with missile/snake stance, he can totally ignore fact that he uses poison on items, only invest in +skills wich is good for all his skills.
Such build connects two powerfull tactics and its quite easy to use.
Belive me - eagle flight is amazing skill, especially with stamped used before. Its way better than ricochet, super long range allows to use it everythere. Its actually similar to druid cascade most of the time.

But the point is also, that using kraken stance is possible but not best - i mean such builds with other stance (lion/wolf/phoenix+stats) instead of kraken would be better.

[pza]

@aerial (aka earlier, ariel, erial, ariael... etc.^^ [dunno how people can't remember this easy nick])

we're talking about a kraken stance barb and you are definetly not


the point at the kraken stance barb is actually his elemental damage. and to increase it we need both a melee attack and spelldamage on items, i'd say.

Because scattershot is a missile, so all your spell damage is wasted. When meleeing, the attacks that actually hit are very powerful.

yeah, that explains it. but i guess otherwise it would have turned more powerfull than any of barb's normal attacks xD


what about making a guide together? i don't know when 1.57 will come out, but it for sure will change a lot of the builds. it's up to laz to either give us a deadline or release it right now xD (just joking, we don' need a deadline! take your time, laz!). that's why this thread is pretty nice. mxing ideas is really useful.

now what's the matter with hawk talons? i somehow can't imagine how this should be good kraken stance. it's a missile skill and does only deliver (kstance slvl*150) - (kstance slvl*300) = ~ 5k-10k(kstance slvl 33) ele-damage. multiplied with the damage multiplier. hm, don't you think physical stances are better for hawk talons?

because i think spelldamage from items is prety important... i reach over 330% spelldamage with all items. now if you use Cauldron (runeword with HEX oskill) you could even get ~650%, at least.

and i tested it , my damage goes up to 143k, in kurast the boost is nearly always on.

[aerial]

My approach is to use multiple hitting skills (weaker than melee kraken stance with spelldamage). But the point is when you throw eagle flight axe, itll hit all mobs arround. And thats not that bad since with melee skills you have to direct hit each mob (to get spellpower bonus).

My point was that same character (using eagle fligh/hawk talons) and stampade for stun, have enough points to add whole snake stance barb power to his playing style (stampade+snake stance before battle, kraken+axe skills).

The only problem is that stake stance can be a bit strong in comparition to kraken, and kraken switch will be only support/poison immune skill.

Edit: And btw physical stances are allways better than kraken i guess. Cautious strike/titan strike will get better damages.

Edit2: For melee barb, retaliate is still best. As i remember direct hit damage from retaliate is highest in whole game (>3/2).

Edit3: 2x Lion runeword, vanquish armor oskill - 300% spellpower when vanquish is active.

[Doabli]

I think if Laz make spell damage work with Kraken Stance, it'll be > Lion Stance due to those massive gears.

[pza]

big problem of lion stance is still that your char receives more damage. you can't easily reduce you damage taken by 140-150%. with a kraken barb it's easy to get 40-50%(with luck upgrading items).

in return, a lionstance barb uses runemaster and that's much more def for him. ~ 150k instead of 40k should be possible.

[nimrod]

Well I tried using throwing skills now.
Note that I don't have max snake stance.

I used a tier 1 throwing axe, I don't know if it's because of the less physical damage or because I'm not used to the throwing skills yet, but I kill faster with SoR in kurast.
More testing is needed to say what tactic is better. I think that ifI had more procs on my gear, and a stronger physical damage throwing axe and maybe snake stance, it would be more useful to use the throwing skills. For the gear I have now though, the melee skills are better.
I guess we'll need to wait for logger to finish his barb if we want to compare.

As for what aerial said-
He is right that with optimal gear the other stances are probably better. But they are also more gear dependent, especially lion and phoenix stance. Also, they have problems with immunes, and if you use snake stance for immunes, then you don't have max minions, which is bad. Minions are really helpful for a barb that doesn't use a shield.

[Logger_120]

I can see the potential power of aerial's suggestion but that goes against the nature of the Kraken barb; ie Stampede+Snake would be primary and then Eagle Flight would go best with Wolf(or Lion) Stance that way you still get Runemaster. This could basically be an addition to the Snake Thrower guide for ways to improve your killspeed.

.....

The hardest part about Kraken babrs is the loss of Runemaster since that provides a HUGE defense bonus. Melee is a little better off since you can use Titan Strike and Conquest easier. Throwers on the other hand will tend to equip more like the various Ways assassins; ie Knockback, HCMTF, CB, Slow, Freeze. With the huge number of axes produced bu Eagle Flight and Hawk Talons it is very easy to apply these effects to all monsters on the screen (and a couple screens away with Eagle Flight). Also the thrower can make good use out of Fortress since neither Eagle Flight or Hawk Talons has a timer.

......

Well I tried using throwing skills now.
Note that I don't have max snake stance.

I used a tier 1 throwing axe, I don't know if it's because of the less physical damage or because I'm not used to the throwing skills yet, but I kill faster with SoR in kurast.
More testing is needed to say what tactic is better. I think that ifI had more procs on my gear, and a stronger physical damage throwing axe and maybe snake stance, it would be more useful to use the throwing skills. For the gear I have now though, the melee skills are better.
I guess we'll need to wait for logger to finish his barb if we want to compare.

Working on it. I can say this for sure that the weakest aspect of the thrower is high hp targets (ie bosses, totems in kurast, etc). However, once I can add Wolf Stance into the mix that will give me anohter 30-something CB which will work very well with EF/HT/Fortress.

.......

As for what aerial said-
He is right that with optimal gear the other stances are probably better. But they are also more gear dependent, especially lion and phoenix stance. Also, they have problems with immunes, and if you use snake stance for immunes, then you don't have max minions, which is bad. Minions are really helpful for a barb that doesn't use a shield.

Actually, I think you still could get a minion but you'd lose points in Greater Manafestations. The set-up would be; max Snake, Eagle, Stampede, Runemaster. After that you could go for more in Lion for the physical dmg or go after a summon and use a 1 point Lion or better yet Wolf since it works much better with summons. Actually you could get by w/o max Stampede since all you really want is the stun duration increase, once you get it high enough for your taste then you could stop putting point there which migh tsave you a few for a summon. But again, this is off topic since this technically isn't a Kraken barb. At least now I know what the plan is for my snake Barb which is on hold b/c of the tourney and this current project.

[Brother Laz]

I think if Laz make spell damage work with Kraken Stance, it'll be > Lion Stance due to those massive gears.

Spell damage already works with KS, but only when you hit a target. (And therefore only for melee attacks)

[pza]

i'm just taking a look in my crystal ball and...

I'm seeing the 1.57 krakenstance barb with hunters claw fist in both hands, maxed stormwind(+dam is only in melee) and alot of spellpower in his stuff. he has kraken stance on, and switches sometimes over to either phoenix stance or wolf stance for physical attacks. he uses both cautious strike and shower of rocks, what will grant him nice defense, reduced physical resistances of the enemy and a strong physical damage part. he's now dealing 4 kinds of damage and might want to raise 3 of them by reducing enemies resistances with the new skill.

and i see that laz will not be pleased to see that throwing axes are not thrown any more.

[DemonicAngel]

he's now dealing 4 kinds of damage and might want to raise 3 of them by reducing enemies resistances with the new skill.

and i see that laz will not be pleased to see that throwing axes are not thrown any more.

If you're using the new skill Falcon Dive to lower resistances, I'm pretty sure you're going to have to throw an axe to use it, since it's a throwing axe skill.

[Skeleon]

I think he means that one will only throw whenever one needs to break immunities...
Normal monsters will probably die rather quickly just from the -50%, Kraken Stance and Stormwind melee damage.

Well, it would certainly be a hybrid between melee and throwing barb. And Laz loves hybrids.

[Brother Laz]

You could also say that physical throwers would use SoR to proc Amp, then switch to throwing.

Why you would want to do this is something else. Throw an axe and then get into melee to... uh, SoR? The big area effect attacks are throwing skills. And physical throwers may not like to first knock over some monsters with Stampede, then get close to use SoR, then finally start spamming out their ranged skills.

I don't see hybrids ruling the field yet.

[pza]

well i can certainly imagine throwing an axe into the crowd to decrase their resistances. and then go melee with krakenstance. why not? this way it would work nicely i think.

now you're right, thrwoers won't like to go into melee before attacking...


btw, falcon dive, will that have a bit of aoe or only 1 target? (would suck^^)

[Brother Laz]

~8 yards of AoE. You need to aim, but not overly so.

[Logger_120]

i'm just taking a look in my crystal ball and...

I'm seeing the 1.57 krakenstance barb with hunters claw fist in both hands, maxed stormwind(+dam is only in melee) and alot of spellpower in his stuff. he has kraken stance on, and switches sometimes over to either phoenix stance or wolf stance for physical attacks. he uses both cautious strike and shower of rocks, what will grant him nice defense, reduced physical resistances of the enemy and a strong physical damage part. he's now dealing 4 kinds of damage and might want to raise 3 of them by reducing enemies resistances with the new skill.

and i see that laz will not be pleased to see that throwing axes are not thrown any more.

Well if the Amp dmg effect of SoR overwites the -%enemy resist from Falcon Dive then this would not be a problem at all. Which I would assume can be done since iirc they will both be curse type effects. If this is the case then I don't really see too manay Kraken barbs running around melee'ing with The Big Game Hunter Axe. Maybe sometimes but not all times. I would assume there would be other better weapon (and gear) options for melee Kraken barbs since the axe and the rest of the set has no +%spell dmg.

PS:
Hunter's Camouflage
Gothic Shield (Sacred)
Smite Damage: 88 to 132
Defense: (4596-6034)
Durability: 81
Required Strength: 199
Required Dexterity: 232
Required Level: 75
(spawns only in Level 121 areas)
15% Faster Run/Walk
45% Faster Block Rate
40% Increased Chance of Blocking
+(221 to 240)% Enhanced Defense
+(41 to 50) Life after each Kill
+(41 to 50) Mana after each Kill
Requirements -75%

[pza]

i finally figured out a use for arreats aim!

imagine following situation:
-cowlevel, barb with high kraken stance and high snake stance and arreat's aim.
stampede onto a horde of cows with snake stance on. some cows die, and half of them leave a guard tower behind. each tower fires with 1/2x damage. if you kill 50 on a screen, that means 25 guard towers at the same place. here you can see how it looks
same thing would work for enmerkar from an older patch (did laz change that?) ( 25% ctc fortress on kill)[/url]

[aerial]

There is lot more items with guard tower on kill btw.
Best are 2 sacred uqniues (throwing spear and kite shield) both 100% ctc. And its overpowered even without stance

old one: http://i8.tinypic.com/7271cgn.jpg

[oneillz808]

aerial, you are obviously the guy with all the sacreds...

so ill list out the more common ones

emperor - hel ith eth, thirty three chance to cast guard tower when you kill an enemy, seven percent chance to cast fortress when struck. in helms.

rampart - nef tir. thirty three chance to cast guard tower when you kill an enemy. in shields.

[aerial]

That is old screenshot, ive traded shield on hamachi ages ago, spear was farmed ;]