Ongoing exploits in the world of Zy-El

[sokol815]

Hey friends, I'm playing Zy-El 4.5 unofficial#11, just thought I would post an on-going log here of my exploits!

Combined image of most things in this post

Clytemnestra reached level 55 And started using Nova, which is actually not very effective for the first 25 levels or so. she then ran Andariel a few times to farm PGems for a Stone of Jordan. Having tired of doing that without teleport, she moved onto farming in the blood moore. During said full clear of the Blood Moore on /players127, She found 2 poster pieces that completed a Winnie the Pooh poster and a Sailor Moon poster, both decent posters (See image above). One gives tons of magic damage and the other lots of maximum damage. And together +1000 life. She didn't have much need of them, so she put them in the stash.

Clytemnestra's killing power hadn't been all that great thus-far, so I decided it would be fun to see how quickly a new character could level on p127 with both posters together... so I made an amazon and within 5 minutes of fighting in the blood moore on p127, she had leveled to 18. Not bad. Did the same with a Barbarian, who suddenly started leveling up a lot faster after the pike he was using broke and he started punching things about 3x as fast for the same amount of damage . He got to level 23 quickly. Then I was ready to get back to Clytemnestra.

Clytemnestra has a lot of mana-flow problems, even with the single SOJ, so I did a few more Andariel runs and made a second SOJ. Now it's better, she has about 800 mana, but she still chugs mana potions like they are going out of style.

She ran uniques many times in Act I, then the first quest in Act II and eeked out another 6 levels, at which point I realized that the Blaze skill has a ridiculous amount of damage. It's DPS is about 13x higher than any other skill the sorceress has at this level....

Level 21 blaze: 19k dps
level 30 nova: 390/cast so, ~1400 dps

Maybe I'll report it on the github as being a little high? Was it just as high in 4.4?

Since switching to Blaze, levels have been coming a lot faster because I was able to switch from p5 to p32, and mana has not been a problem. I just wonder: Why is Blaze so strong when all other comparable skills are much lower in DPS? Clytemnestra does fine on p32 right now because of her amulet she got from turning in a t-card hand of 2's, 1 of each suit. It has 200 damage reduction and +3 to skills with some healthy life regen. (Forgot to put it in the image above, sorry!)

She's about 1/2 done with Act II, now... just running into the lost city to grab the amulet.

Running on p32 results in a ton of drops, which is awesome, but she got tired of TPing back to the town to identify everything and put it in it's spot in the stash, so she just took to compacting everything into her collector, which is now up to 1250 points. That'll be good for some crafting. I also just finished a pikachu poster.

Clytemnestra's future plans include: After hitting level 70, going back to Andariel runs so she can quickly teleport to Andariel, and farm perfect Gems from her. She needs PGems to convert her minor charms-of-making into bigger ones. The stash has plenty of other crafting materials right now. I suppose I could use those 1250 crafting points to make the required PGems, but they are not cheap.

Anyways, off to work and such.

[Moonpaw]

Nice to see you making progress^^ I started out with a necromancer, barb, and amazon. Luckily i found a way to carry over most of my 4.4c uniques and zy el scrolls to the new version, posters too. So im quite stocked on those. My barb is currently my highest character and i decided to clear normal difficulty first before i start farming for "oath of" and "word of" RWs

P.S. In my opinion a LOT of the skills need further tweaking or straight out buffing, especially the later ones that arent weapon dmg based. Most of the time when you play a spell caster char you reach like lvl 70 or so and youre all like "Yay....a spell that does 300 dmg....i do 1000 dmg with my bare fists....yeah....How do i start over as barb again?"

[sokol815]

Nice to see you making progress^^ I started out with a necromancer, barb, and amazon. Luckily i found a way to carry over most of my 4.4c uniques and zy el scrolls to the new version, posters too. So im quite stocked on those. My barb is currently my highest character and i decided to clear normal difficulty first before i start farming for "oath of" and "word of" RWs

I opted not to carry over all of that stuff... I had a level 473 sorceress with something like 120k% gold find, I think that would make picking up the mod again a lot less fun. Half the fun of ZyEl is having to speed quit because you are about to die and don't want to drop the 3000 gold you have picked up, right?

P.S. In my opinion a LOT of the skills need further tweaking or straight out buffing, especially the later ones that arent weapon dmg based. Most of the time when you play a spell caster char you reach like lvl 70 or so and youre all like "Yay....a spell that does 300 dmg....i do 1000 dmg with my bare fists....yeah....How do i start over as barb again?"

I've seen on the github a lot of skill nerfing has been done. I just tried for a couple of hours today to get that version working, but couldn't get past a d2 exception after following all of the d2mod setup stuff. Same issue with the d2se setup, there. the only d2se that I could get working was the one in the first post of the new updates thread. A recent commit allegedly fixed blaze, so that's good to see.

Clytemnestra is now level 150. She has finished through act IV and has significantly slowed down in act V, as the updates remove Act III and Act IV Zy rune drops. I'm really hurting for more mana right now, as I have about 1800 mana and a single nova costs about 110. Sitting around 2500 life which is also rather low. I might pick up some moby dick charms, but inventory space is at a premium since crafting 2x unique narrow charms for an additional +8 to allskills and then finding a unique +3 allskills grand charm.

Nova is doing pretty well... it currently sits at around 6000 damage, which will take most things out in a couple of hits on /players1. I don't generally have as much time to cast static before nova because I don't have my mana shield nor the health to absorb many blows. I'm thinking I need to somehow get my %chance to block and %recovery speed up as much as I can. Couple that with my currently 95% damage reduction and she is somewhat survivable. I have a life bocl belt, but I haven't been able to do a second crafting onto it because of a lack of zy runes.

Otherwise, gear has not much changed since level 55... probably means it is time for an upgrade.

[Moonpaw]

Im sad to inform you that my HD died and i lost all my save files. I brought it to a PC store in hopes that they can recover the data. First thing you should do is get treasure cards, get a 3 or 4 of all suits and do a 7 unique of 3s/4s or whatever its called (3 of spades, 3 of hearts, 3 of talon, and so on)
Then transmute that and you get a very nice amulet

[sokol815]

Im sad to inform you that my HD died and i lost all my save files. I brought it to a PC store in hopes that they can recover the data. First thing you should do is get treasure cards, get a 3 or 4 of all suits and do a 7 unique of 3s/4s or whatever its called (3 of spades, 3 of hearts, 3 of talon, and so on)
Then transmute that and you get a very nice amulet

Oh, that is rough. Sorry to hear it. On the bright side, starting over can be pretty fun. I'm currently running around with a 7 unique of 2s amulet that has very similar stats. I almost have all the cards to do a set of 7s, that should have some awesome stats.

Got updated to the most recent github today. Found pretty quickly that the sorceress is now much more of a mana hog than she was before, but she makes up for it in each of her spells feeling like they have a lot more weight behind them because they deal more damage. I like that. I was able to level from 150 to 154 in about 10 minutes of playing in Act V. I also got a reward of 3 zy runes from Qual-Kekh! I'm excited to have those!

[Moonpaw]

yeah spells were buffed, and it seems energy buffs spell dmg now
I found a major bug though. A barbarian cant dual wield two handed swords anymore

[sokol815]

All the things 2

Clytemnestra has now reached level 369. She gains another 10 levels or so every Baal run. Her life BoCL belt is providing a whopping 6642(+18/lvl) life and I have 2 more cube locks just waiting for amulets/rings to use them.

She is running at a decent 11k health and her resistances are still in the high 300s, except magic which is at 98% and will soon need to be buffed again. The adaptive resistance penalty is a very interesting mechanic and I think it will make resistances the new hardest thing about hitting really high levels. Sure you may have 10 million life, but taking 5000% elemental/magic damage is rough...

She is currently running with +58 to all skills from many sources. 3 re-rolled unique charms have provided an amazing +20 to all-skills by themselves.

frozen orb damage is finally getting to be very high, and she has now reached the +2 skill points/level cap for both cold mastery and frozen orb.

Boss drops have been tweaked in the updated version... Diablo and Mephisto no longer drop zy runes (I have not seen a single one from them, yet). Baal runs are now pretty frustrating, as baal seems to have a high chance of just dropping junk after I have just spent a good 15 minutes fighting my way down to his throne room. His minions usually give me about 2 million gold before I get to him, then he often drops worthless items. Occasionally will drop a zy rune and once a zy-el scroll piece. My gold find leaves much to be desired (currently 174%) but I will not have much of a chance to remedy it until I can farm enough items to craft my first few mega loads into a jewel.

I'm thinking it might be time to try a cow run and see how that goes.

Edit:
nope, definitely not. I will wait a couple hundred levels before I attempt that.

[Montex]

increased Zy chance from bosses... I guess it was too low.
But GF jewels is a big NO
Are you still staying in normal at 359 level? what level were you when you first killed Baal?

[Moonpaw]

I love how montex {filtered} up the mod more and more with most commits. Like one of his latest pranks of removing thumbnail recipes. Have you considered all the demon boxes that can give unique item thumbnails? i bet not. And besides, what reason is there to remove them in the first place? theyre a neat feature.
Anyway, my barb is lvl 320-ish now and about to enter the worldstone keep (ran out of time last night). I spent tons of ca$h to make 2 Colossus blades with "Oath of barbarian" runewords and 4 socket warboots (of course i had to patch out montex's dumb idea of limiting max sockets on "early game" items) with the word of barbarian runeword. I made a major Master charm of making and a small one and made a crafted jewel that adds 600 to all attributes to equip more powerful stuff. Unbuffed i have about 19k life now and all my resistances are capped at 75 in the char screen.
This weekend i will probably work on my Diablo2 editors for modding and ill try to add a line of new recipes. Itll allow you to add class skills on unique armor, so you can create your perfect all around class. Imagine something like this: Unique armor + Perfect Ruby + Zy Rune + Zy El scroll will add +2 to Hydra (oskill). Now when you equip the armor your amazon will be able to cast lvl2 hydra without needing charges~ Of course the recipes stack so with a crap load of zy el scrolls you can really rank it up. Of course youll never have a crap load of zy el scrolls since theyre hard to get. I pictured something like this for the recipe: the gem will determine the class and the rune will determine which skill.

My next goals are leveling up and getting word of barbarian gauntlets and helmet. and perhaps a mega master charm of making but thatll be expensive.

[Montex]

sorry about thumbnails... will revert it
as for other commits it seems you want to have a perfect char without even leaving normal difficulty... And that is something i do not understand.

Also i should remind you that oskills benefit from +allskills so you would not need too many zyel scrolls. 1 for each skill you want on average Personally would pick all passives from all classes first. zon dodges + ar, bars ac + res + BO, sorcs enchant + static + warmth + masteries, some paladin aura, + multishot on top of those. hydra is the last thing that comes to mind i counted 15 ZyEl scrolls so far. not that many actually. after that crafted belt + pskull (with cubelocks) for some allskills and everything is set.

[Moonpaw]

sorry about thumbnails... will revert it
as for other commits it seems you want to have a perfect char without even leaving normal difficulty... And that is something i do not understand.

Also i should remind you that oskills benefit from +allskills so you would not need too many zyel scrolls. 1 for each skill you want on average Personally would pick all passives from all classes first. zon dodges + ar, bars ac + res + BO, sorcs enchant + static + warmth + masteries, some paladin aura, + multishot on top of those. hydra is the last thing that comes to mind i counted 15 ZyEl scrolls so far. not that many actually. after that crafted belt + pskull (with cubelocks) for some allskills and everything is set.

hmmm, that is something to consider for sure. But there isnt really any way around it, at least not a good one (adding also -all skills but, meh....no) Another one of your changes i hated, btw, was adding 40 lvl requirement to crafted jewel + zy el scroll recipes. In 4.4c ive dumped all my zy el scrolls in that one perfect jewel to give around 82k elemental dmg on all elements. The jewel would quickly require a level over 10000 if one was to get all elemental damages on 100k. or more.

Another idea i had on my drive home was adding crafted rings/amulets/charms/jewels to the recipe so you can get "get hit" "on hit" "oskill" and auras respectively. but then again, if it stacks, how do you only increase the lvl of a "on hit" effect and not the chance, at least not past a certain threshhold

[Montex]

There some skills as oskills on some uniques. you would just need to find those.
If you find some way to increase lvl of proc skills let me know while procing lvl 5 charged bolt is annoying, procing lvl 200 charged bold may be actually useful. Same for other skills.
as for the crafted jewel (and most other cubeleocked recipe) level requirements... you dont have to dump all scrolls on one jewel. Thats the main reason why i added them. Those level requirements have more impact on crafted armor recipes as you can have only one of those. I just wanted to keep some limits with rollovers gone. btw you would need 249 zyel scrolls to reach lvl 10k.
im kinda curious where you got the zyel scrolls from at your level but then again if you tell ill probably disable that and you will be unhappy again

[sokol815]

increased Zy chance from bosses... I guess it was too low.
But GF jewels is a big NO
Are you still staying in normal at 359 level? what level were you when you first killed Baal?

TL;DR: Decreasing the accessibility of the game will drive players away and drive the fun away. ZyEl was able to move away from the grind-fest that vanilla diablo 2 is... don't bring that back.

I am indeed still staying in normal at level 359... said sorceress has been able to complete the first few quests in act 1, but all she gains from questing is levels... something she can gain just fine when doing Baal runs. BTW, now level 400 after another 4 Baal runs. Note: this is with commit from a couple of days ago that changes the EXP formula again.

Edit: Clytemnestra first killed Baal around level 200.

Now, if you will excuse me, it is rant time. Please indulge me.

Guaranteed decent drops from bosses were one of the best things about ZyEl, it took one of the worst things away from diablo 2... uncertain gain for a given time investment. You could calculate how many more runs you needed to do for a given number of Zy runes or gold... so you could easily gauge the time investment to reach "the next level". After a few hundred runs, your output per run could be multiplied many times, this allowed you to gain for the resources to battle higher difficulties, experiment, or invest even further into infrastructure. Removing these adaptations will greatly limit the amount of ZyEl your average person can see....

Lets assume Baal has a 10% drop chance of a single zy rune(yup, saw that commit). Assuming we use those runes to craft 7 zy-el scroll pieces and all 7 of them are different, we require 20 zy runes. This would take 200 Baal runs to the first ZyEl scroll. Lets be generous and say that in those 200 Baal runs, you will probably get another 14 zy-el scroll fragments(7% drop chance from Baal?... not likely...) You happen to get exactly scroll fragments in the perfect order every time. It takes 66 baal runs for your first zy-el scroll.

compare to vanilla ZyEl: Baal drops 3.5(ish) Zy runes when killed at players127... as does Mephisto, which is much quicker to farm. Assuming you start by making full ZyEl scrolls instead of using scroll pieces, we require 30 Zy runes (the magical ever-increasing collector doesn't exist, yet) This would take... 10ish Baal runs. At this point you could craft an item to increase your Baal run speed or turn around and put that back into your infrastructure. By the time you have hit your 200th Baal run, You could have crafted 900% gf 20x -> 18000% gf increase.... killing 4 high-gold drop monsters nets you 3.5 million gold, enough to purchase a zy rune. you can kill 100 of said monsters and grab their gold in 15 minutes(probably faster). You now have 25 Zy runes, and then kill Baal giving you an additional 3 Zy runes... if you are making scroll fragments, you are able to create 7.33 fragments per run.

The accessibility of the Mod will be obliterated if you remove the ability to increase your gathering efficiency.

Lets say your average Joe is able to play for 10 hours a week. It currently takes him 15 minutes to complete a Baal run, as he has just completed Normal difficulty. He is around level 360. Now average Joe knows that realistically, he will only be able to achieve up to a 3x or 4x efficiency in gathering crafting materials, but lets be generous and say he can get up to 10x efficiency. Since the first ZyEl scroll is done at a 1x efficiency, Joe requires a whopping 16 hours for his first scroll. He will be able to have 1 done in 10 days or so. Joe does not enjoy endlessly running Baal, but he has reached a wall where his available resources are not enough to combat the ever-increasing difficulty of the game. Joe already has a crafted belt with +life, +mana, +skills.... His inventory is completely full of charms and he has no answer to the high resistance penalties he faces any time he steps into nightmare difficulty.

Here's the kicker. He just finished doing 66 Baal runs and has now leveled up 500 levels... his resistances are completely shot, and he is now required to tip-toe his way through Baal runs in order to make progress... He realizes he may need to start a new character if he wants to be able to progress further with this character... luckily for him, his 1 ZyEl scroll can be used to craft 600 to all resistances into a crafted jewel... This is his only choice, because any time he is touched by elemental damage, he dies. He gains no increased ability to farm Baal by the runs themselves. Only items dropped on the way to Baal could improve his character. Realistically, there is a very high chance at this point that Joe has quit the game.

vanilla ZyEl gives you a feedback loop for your hard work... with the changes you have made, this no longer exists and becomes a grindfest not unlike vanilla diablo 2. I would love to hear what your long-term plans are for this mod... what do you see a level 10000 character doing? what is your roadmap?

Please keep in mind that not all people play the mod with the same investment of time. Kato did a great job of making sure the reward/time ratio was positive... I'd like to see that continue.

[Montex]

the way i want the game to be is that players could advance through all difficulties without ever touching zyel scrolls (and thus no 16 hours grind for first zyel scroll). Technically those should first appear in insanity levels. Resistances would be mostly supported by class runewords (~225) and trinity torso (~225). then some small adjustments could be made with jewel recipes (lets say around 100-200), and i expect ~200 from other sources (other runewords, unique items, chom, etc). That should last till lvl 700-800 by which i would expect to finish hell. Saying that you need zyel scroll to advance doesnt really sound convincing...

currently i have dropped the nerco in nm. Having some fun with untwinked paladin on /players 8 (from the very start) hardcore. hes around lvl 200 atm. trying to find a way to kill duriel as i have some serious trouble hitting it. I remember similar experiment on players 127 was easier on 4.4 anyway, once my pally dies i will resume nm.

[sokol815]

the way i want the game to be is that players could advance through all difficulties without ever touching zyel scrolls (and thus no 16 hours grind for first zyel scroll). Technically those should first appear in insanity levels. Resistances would be mostly supported by class runewords (~225) and trinity torso (~225). then some small adjustments could be made with jewel recipes (lets say around 100-200), and i expect ~200 from other sources (other runewords, unique items, chom, etc). That should last till lvl 700-800 by which i would expect to finish hell. Saying that you need zyel scroll to advance doesnt really sound convincing...

*snip*

Well glad to hear you have a plan for how getting to hell should be. Running up through the outer cloister raised Clytemnestra to level 430... and that was just doing the minimum amount of killing she could at players 2 (players 1 = super cakewalk right now, probably due to being over-leveled.) I think there is a high chance she will come in at finishing hell at level 1000.

It's fine if you intend for building up to be done after Hell is completed, no problem... I just don't see why you want to make it so difficult to get built up once you are there. You have completed all the quests, you already have found/crafted the best gear you will be able to get... The amount of grinding I see as needing to be done is insane. How will anyone ever amass 20 or 30 zy-el scrolls without playing the game for 2000 hours?

[Moonpaw]

the way i want the game to be is that players could advance through all difficulties without ever touching zyel scrolls (and thus no 16 hours grind for first zyel scroll). Technically those should first appear in insanity levels. Resistances would be mostly supported by class runewords (~225) and trinity torso (~225). then some small adjustments could be made with jewel recipes (lets say around 100-200), and i expect ~200 from other sources (other runewords, unique items, chom, etc). That should last till lvl 700-800 by which i would expect to finish hell. Saying that you need zyel scroll to advance doesnt really sound convincing...

*snip*

Well glad to hear you have a plan for how getting to hell should be. Running up through the outer cloister raised Clytemnestra to level 430... and that was just doing the minimum amount of killing she could at players 2 (players 1 = super cakewalk right now, probably due to being over-leveled.) I think there is a high chance she will come in at finishing hell at level 1000.

It's fine if you intend for building up to be done after Hell is completed, no problem... I just don't see why you want to make it so difficult to get built up once you are there. You have completed all the quests, you already have found/crafted the best gear you will be able to get... The amount of grinding I see as needing to be done is insane. How will anyone ever amass 20 or 30 zy-el scrolls without playing the game for 2000 hours?

LOTS of gold and autohotkey. In 4.4c i had a autohotkey makro that made 12k worth of magic collectors in 30 seconds
But the gold cost was intense. 24 empty magic collectors, 24 flawless skulls, 24 flawed skulls.

Anyway i have a problem/question. Is it possible that some attack skills cant be cast "on striking". For testing purposes i made a unique gloves with 120% chance to cast lvl 5 magic arrow on striking. Tested it with my barb and a bow and it never procced once

[sokol815]

increased Zy chance from bosses... I guess it was too low.
But GF jewels is a big NO
Are you still staying in normal at 359 level? what level were you when you first killed Baal?

Hmm... Moonpaw, you must have missed this, then. Lots of GF is no more. Sure, you can get up to high magic find now, but MF is useless after 2500%....

See:
https://github.com/zyel/zyel/commit/b82 ... 6f0361837b

[Montex]

Anyway i have a problem/question. Is it possible that some attack skills cant be cast "on striking". For testing purposes i made a unique gloves with 120% chance to cast lvl 5 magic arrow on striking. Tested it with my barb and a bow and it never procced once

Skills.txt EN column "ItemEffect". My guess is that is the main reason why magic arrow fails

[Moonpaw]

increased Zy chance from bosses... I guess it was too low.
But GF jewels is a big NO
Are you still staying in normal at 359 level? what level were you when you first killed Baal?

Hmm... Moonpaw, you must have missed this, then. Lots of GF is no more. Sure, you can get up to high magic find now, but MF is useless after 2500%....

See:
https://github.com/zyel/zyel/commit/b82 ... 6f0361837b

why? is there a hardcoded MF find cap or mechanic?
And ill get GF even if i have to find 10000 common cube scrolls, dont underestimate my endurance >:)

[Moonpaw]

Ok i changed the itemeffect column to 1 now and now my arrows have a chance to "split" upon impact and spawn a magic arrow after my normal arrow hit an enemy. Its kinda a funny mechanic

[sokol815]

increased Zy chance from bosses... I guess it was too low.
But GF jewels is a big NO
Are you still staying in normal at 359 level? what level were you when you first killed Baal?

Hmm... Moonpaw, you must have missed this, then. Lots of GF is no more. Sure, you can get up to high magic find now, but MF is useless after 2500%....

See:
https://github.com/zyel/zyel/commit/b82 ... 6f0361837b

why? is there a hardcoded MF find cap or mechanic?
And ill get GF even if i have to find 10000 common cube scrolls, dont underestimate my endurance >:)

Mf does not have a hard cap, but it has a diminishing returns formula. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18134

[Montex]

And ill get GF even if i have to find 10000 common cube scrolls, dont underestimate my endurance >:)

There are 8 uniques that give gf/lvl (0.125 to 1). 3 of those are jewels (0.125-0.25).
gf/lvl is nothing special < lvl 1000, but after that it should be enough. no 120000% gf though... i guess...
Btw I am stashing gf csc as well
also it may be a good idea to add gf/lvl to finder (not master) mega chom...

[Moonpaw]

And ill get GF even if i have to find 10000 common cube scrolls, dont underestimate my endurance >:)

There are 8 uniques that give gf/lvl (0.125 to 1). 3 of those are jewels (0.125-0.25).
gf/lvl is nothing special < lvl 1000, but after that it should be enough. no 120000% gf though... i guess...
Btw I am stashing gf csc as well
also it may be a good idea to add gf/lvl to finder (not master) mega chom...

Seriously, gold is very useful in this mod. GF is your best friend.

Btw on my cubemain i added one recipe im sure you can appreciate too.
36 mag jewels to crafted jewel. ((there was already 6 mag jewels -> rare jewel, and 6 rare jewels -> crafted jewel.))
So you save only one step and you dont need less/more mag jewels
Its another lazy cat recipe

[Montex]

i may add something for really lazy people Still checking if its possible...

EDIT: commited gold collector. Hopefully there are no bugs You can now extract / upgrade some items for gold just like you could for cube points

[Moonpaw]

i may add something for really lazy people Still checking if its possible...

EDIT: commited gold collector. Hopefully there are no bugs You can now extract / upgrade some items for gold just like you could for cube points

that sounds cool. Will take a peak some time.

I also had an idea for a unique bow. I got it from my magicx arrow on striking testing. I dont know how cool or OP it would be but imagine shooting arrows that split into multiple arrows upon impact. I think it can be done because when i did "magic arrow on striking" the arrow split into a magic arrow upon impact. Maybe the same can be done for multishot

EDIT: Okay, nope nope nope. This is just broken, scratch the idea. It works, but the additionally cast multishot can trigger another multishot and so on. I tried it, and its OP as F. Maybe as "on attacking" it works, but on hit its broken cause it chain reacts

EDIT2: ......WTF? Okay so i tried to change it from "on striking" to "on attacking" with multishot. I dont know if its a bug or not but Bows (and perhaps range weapons in general?) cant trigger "on attacking" item effects. I also had a regular charm with 5% chance to cast chain lightning on attacking, never triggered once with a bow. AND WHATS EVEN WEIRDER: For fun i switched to punching (unarmed) and now multishot triggers all the time, which isnt surprising with 100% BUT YOU HEAR STAR WARS BLASTER SOUNDS NOW with every trigger of multi shot. WTF?!